Vote with your wallets – vote Bristol Pound!

by or dance with the devil? Sat May 16, 2009 10:13

Bristol East Side Traders have a very strong influence on the economy in the east side of bristol - might be a start to get them involved? Although I'm not sure they are that fussed about what the money looks like, or even that much about the community - seems more a good old fashioned bit of freemasonry to me (both LibDem and Labour candidates in Easton seem to have close ties with them).

But still, the Bristol pound seems a great idea, and getting them and other cartels behind it would certainly seem like a winner.

by Free Willy Sat May 16, 2009 15:14

Right off the top of my head, Credit Unions might make good 'partners' with initiating something like this?

No doubt we will have the greedy capitalists diving in looking to get their hands on other peoples money!

by Art Tue May 19, 2009 07:10

The idea of a local currency is a really good one as it effectively allows "bartering" but without the need for exchange of goods. Simple economics I know but when you have labels like "greedy capitalist" being banded about when this idea of a local currency is to enhance trade and the power of local businesses and the local customers to control more of their own destiny I do wonder about the agenda of some on here.

The benefits of a local currency are that profit will be recycled within a smaller area or group. Profit is required to make it all worthwhile. If anyone wants to make a loss as some sort of political statement then that is their choice but please forgive the rest of us if we chuckle and move on.

A local currency means that taxes such as VAT could be ignored. And indeed if a plumber for example would agree to be paid in the Bristol Grote (don't call it a £ please as the capital taxes office could attack it - it seems that the methodology of the Lewes £, whilst good - does make it vulnerable in this regard) or whatever it ends up being called then he would not have to pay VAT and so would not charge you VAT and on top of that he would be able to protect that bit of income from Income tax and NIC.

Not paying NIC could affect his (the plumbers) state benefits such as OAP but seeing as the new rules only require 30 years NIC contributions now I do not see this as a huge issue. But the benefit to Bristolians of running a currency in parallel with GBS is one that is more attractive given the high levels of taxation we suffer in the UK.

This is an excellent idea that deserves to succeed. Other places have similar - Lewes and Totnes are just two I have looked at.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/working_lunch/760...9.stm

Value of the currency unit is a key issue. What happens in Lewes is that you exchange GBS for a Lewes pound. The GBS is held securely and you can exchange your Lewes pounds back to GBS at any time. This gives the local currency its strength by way of parity to GBS. But as I say - the issue is that the CTO are looking to ensure that they can simply engulf the currency if they see it as a tax avoidance vehicle.

It is my view that unless the Bristol Grote/whatever is linked to GBS in the same way then you may as well try to use monopoly money to buy your pint or pay a bill.

by B.E.S.T of the rest Tue May 19, 2009 18:10

I don't see any mention of tax-dodging being the main driving force behind the original article Art, so maybe it is you who have got the wrong end of the stick.

The advantage of a local currency would be, in my eyes, a way to wean ourselves away from a money relationship, and create a dual power system that encourages an outlook where benefit to the community (and indirectly the individual) is the driving force, not the increase of personal profit through tax avoidance.

The idea of profit being essential to a community is as ludicrous as it is dangerous: complex societies can run on a not-for-profit basis, with the innovative element being provided by other factors, such as reputation, peer acclaim, and even enjoying what your doing and wanting to do it better! (isn't that a nice idea?). We see it on a small scale in the voluntary or not-for-profit sector, the work of religious groups, co-ops, etc.etc. The fact that you ignore all of that makes you more open to the label 'naieve' than those of us who feel that capitalism has had its day.

You may think a word without capitlism is a fantastic and ridiculous idea - fine, but don't criticise us for talking about it here. A lot of people lately have talked about Bristol Indymedia being an open news-source, and criticising it for having a 'viewpoint'. What people forget is it is also an avowedly anti-capitalist project - if you want to talk about the Iron Law of the Profit Principle or how to avoid taxes, you're best off somewhere else.

Back to the original point: It seems the experience of other areas is that these things grow from small roots: maybe a particular area that is already more informal than most, such as house repair and redecoration could trial the currency, with another common need (e.g. a food co-op) being used to complete the triangle. So, people buy food and Bristol Pounds from a food co-op, then trade the BP's for services, then the traders can buy their food with BP's, and everyone's happy!

Original poster: what do you reckon?

by Spammond. Tue May 19, 2009 19:27

Conventional / capitalist cash-money is little more than a substitute for trust for fuxx-sake.

And it truly does bring out the very worst in low-minded people.

The world anti-capitalists are working towards will have very different 'values'.

Capitalists cannot even begin to imagine or comprehened anything which is outside their own value-system.

Our time and energy should not be wasted on those too closed-minded to understand, our focus should be on open-minded people/s.

by Spike that Spam!!!!!!!!! Tue May 19, 2009 21:00

Perhaps you could wake me up when you have the reality that goes with the spin. If you want to play monopoly get out a set from behind the SU Bar. If you want to debate real change then gets a grip guys because you have a great deal to learn about trade.

You can spin all the boolox you wish but the reality is that no trader who exists in the real world (and that includes Bristol in case you had any doubts) would be interested unless the currency is pegged to another well established one because if you seriously think that Bristol traders can buy produce from elsewhere as you say " then the traders can buy their food with BP's," but these BP's could be worth nothing in say Manchester, Glasgow or Swindon then you have got to be having a laugh!

You just have not thought it through or done any reality checks.

As for the notion that anyone who has an intelligence to realise the paucity of thought by some on here would be "best off somewhere else" - well how is that for the brave new world of making things "better". All that thought by the control freaks does is to censor the opposition (fat chance) So welcome to a peep into the Brave New World of the left - not so much alive as just about existing in 2009.

Yawn

by Spammond Tue May 19, 2009 22:35

TOES = The other Economic summit.

TOES was founded by TOES/UK, now the New Economics Foundation. The first TOES conference was held in England in 1984 when a variety of individuals and groups concerned with social justice and the environment decided there should be a peoples' response to the G7 (now G8) summit held in London that year. Ever since that time, TOES has contributed, in one way or another, to Peoples' Summits held in all the G7 countries. The first TOES gathering was held in England in 1984. From 1985 to 1987, TOES met in the UK and sent a delegation to the G-7 summit city. Beginning in 1988, TOES has convened every year at the site of the G-7 Summit. TOES has brought together academics and activists from both industrialized and third-world nations to challenge the assumption of the official summit that global economic policy affecting 100 percent of the world's people can effectively be made by the leaders of seven nations representing less than a quarter of the global population. In 1988 the newly formed TOES/North America sponsored the Toronto TOES as part of the Canadian-organized Citizens Summit; and in July of 1989, TOES/France held an alternative summit in Paris: L'Autre Sommet Economique.

TOES '90 in Texas drew over a thousand people from 40 countries and every continent. TOES '91 was in the UK, TOES '92 in Germany, TOES '93 in Tokyo, and TOES '94 in Italy. Australia is not a member of the Group of Seven, but that hasn't stopped the Australians from holding TOES-Australia conferences in 1993, 1994, and 1995. From 1985 to 1987, the New Economics Foundation held TOES conferences in the UK and sent a delegation bearing a statement to the country where G-7 summit was being held. TOES-USA was founded in 1987, and in 1988 held the Toronto TOES conference as part of the Canadian-organized Citizens Summit. In 1989, TOES-USA sent a delegation to the very successful French-organized alternative summit in Paris L'Autre Sommet Economique, which drew over 1000 participants TOES-USA held its first conference on US soil in 1990 in Houston, Texas, with the theme "The Voice of the People for a Change." A joint effort of TOES-USA and many local organizations, the conference drew over a thousand people from 40 countries and every continent. In 1991, the TOES conference returned to London and was organized by the New Economics Foundation, with participation by TOES-USA.

TOES '92 was in Germany, TOES '93 in Tokyo, and TOES '94 in Italy. Australia is not a member of the Group of Seven, but that didn't stop Australians from holding TOES-Australia conferences in 1993, 1994, and 1995. In 1995, there were several TOES-USA sections at Canadian-Organized People's Summit in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Three local universities offered courses covering G-7 issues, and students were required to attend the Peoples' Summit. A local radio station devoted considerable air time to analyzing both summits and linking the issues raised to the local economy. In 1996, French groups organized several "contre sommets" in Lyon, France. In 1997, TOES-USA partnered with local organizations in Denver, CO, to hold a its second conference on American soil, a "Peoples' Summit" with the theme: "Working Alternatives: A World that Works."

In 1998, TOES returned to England for a third time, and again the New Economics Foundation sponsored a "Peoples' Summit", this time in Birmingham, England. In 1999, a consortium of German groups sponsored "Alliance Cologne 99/Bündnis Köln 99" in Cologne, Germany. "Summit 2000," in Okinawa, Japan, was organized by Japanese groups. The 2001 G8 Summit Genoa, Italy, turned deadly when police harassed legitimate popular responses to G8 policies and one protester was killed. After 9/11/2001, the G8 adopted a fortress mentality as sites for the G8 summits in Kananaskis, Canada, in 2002 and Evian, France, in 2003, were chosen to be as inaccessible as possible. This year's site at isolated Sea Island, Georgia, continues this trend. Happily, as the G8 leaders became ever more isolated behind ever bigger barricades, press coverage of the various popular responses to the G8 Summits got better and better. We hope to be able to show them the many ways - from economic analyses to economic strategies -- by which people everywhere are taking control of their own economic destinies.

by Spammond 666 Wed May 20, 2009 07:37

This kind of debate is best done in meetings and conferences, well away from those grasping capitalists whose only motivation is greed.

In an open forum like this capitalists are able kill positive initiatives with their destructive standards and values.

Capitalists will destroy a planet for profit, and laugh all the way to the bank!

The change towards more moral and ethical fairer principled sustainable economy cannot include capitalists if it is ever to get off the ground.

Debating alternative and sustainable, ethical principled fairer economics with capitalists is like discussing childcare with paedophiles.

by Oh Yeah Right Wed May 20, 2009 13:21

From what I have observed Spam - you are ever one to hype up the hate - And now you bring in children and paedophiles.

And yet there is not an economy in the world that does not rely on Free Trade. It is those that want control that are out of step.

Ever more desperate now that even you realise that your ideals are just not acceptable to the majority you have to resort to the lowest form of obsessive shock tactics to somehow still get the attention you clearly crave.

A true mark of the obsessive.

I suggest that your remark is in very poor taste given the appalling revelations from Ireland about the Catholic Church and child abuse. And clearly in my view breaks the respect guidelines.

You should be ashamed.

by Spike that Spam! Wed May 20, 2009 15:42

Let a centralised government bureaucracy run things and you get this:-

http://distributorcapny.blogspot.com/2009/04/by-disappe....html

http://mondediplo.com/2000/07/19envidisaster

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/col...a.htm

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?dat...53482

In contrast - whilst the, loathed by some, Capitalist system has some issues re the environment, Spam is totally wrong in saying that Capitalists destroy the planet for profit and are laughing all the way to the bank. The reality is that Capitalism needs consumers, and to have consumers you need a sustainable economy. Destroy the environment as the Soviets did with the Aral Sea and you destroy the economy. No trade no profit not capitalism.

Where you have an all powerful dictate with no responsibility you get the sort of environmental disasters listed above. In marked contrast where in the West we have polluter pays legislation that would be an anathema to the old Soviet regime that clearly cared about as much for the environment as it did for its people. Those who blindly criticise capitalism because of a personal view rather than a logical argument are as outdated as the old Soviet Union.

That is not to say that things are perfect. They are not. Well meaning but basically silly legislation born of the scare tactics of some so called environmentalists re Global Warming is causing vast swathes of rare habitat to be grubbed up in the name of reducing CO2 levels by increased Palm Oil production. Thank goodness most now see that this is worse overall for the planet than extracting mineral oil.

Yes mineral oil will run out, but Methyl Hydrates offer an energy resource far greater than all the oil and energy gas reserves combined.

But if you don’t like the idea of a Free Market and want control al la Soviet – far easier to ignore logic and truth and just spray as much silly shit as you can in the hope that some of it sticks.

Trouble is, the wind has changed.

by Spammond 666 Wed May 20, 2009 16:33

Well, I guess if you are right about me being "out of step" then my comment will be hidden.

And if you are wrong, it will not be hidden.

And if it is not hidden, then I guess it would be fair to say that its you who are "out of step" here.

But please rest assurred I am extremely pleased to hear that I am "out of step" with the likes of you capitalists.

Thank you ever so much for that.

Do you actually have anything to offer on the topic?

Meanwhile, for those interested in alternatives to the so called 'Free-trade' anything goes in the name of profit capitalist economy - some Links

Lets All Share
Website that puts people together with others in their local community, or friends and family, so infrequently-used possessions can be shared when they're needed.
Leicester LETS4All
Volunteer-run group allowing members to offer and receive services without the need for money. For info, contact Tony on tony.modinos [AT]talktalk.net
FEASTA - The Foundation for the Economics of Sustainability
Feasta aims to identify the characteristics (economic, cultural and environmental) of a truly sustainable society, articulate how the necessary transition can be effected and promote the implementation of the measures required for this purpose.
New Economics Foundation
Works to construct a new economy centered on people and the environment - using techniques such as social and environmental auditing.
Money as Debt
Excellent short animated film which very simply explains how money is created, and how the banking system works.
Prosperity UK
A monthly journal on Money Reform, based in Glasgow which campaigns for publicly-created debt-free money.
Money: What it is, how it works
Thorough introduction to what seems like every aspect of the money system.
Herman Daly on Economic Growth
US economist Herman Daly explains the conflict between economic growth and resource availability in this 3 minute video.
The Ecology of Money
Short book by economist Richard Douthwaite which can be read online, which outlines the unsustainability of our current currency system, and proposes an alternative approach.

by Mell O Wed May 20, 2009 17:44

Freecycle Bristol is a very good example of one facet of alternative local economics ............. good caring people offering free gratis and for nothing unwanted possessions to others in the community to use rather than sending stuff to landfill.

The only negative in the concept are the selfish greedy capitalist 'Trader' types who collect from 'Freecyclers' then sell on whatever they can get their grubby hands on.

by NON_consumer. Wed May 20, 2009 18:05

Why do you persist with your delusions that anybody here is even remotely interested in a communist style economy from another century?
Please dont answer, we dont really want to know what you think, we are bored shitless by your pro-capitalist propaganda-stream.
We want a fairer greener sustainable ethical moral and principled value-system, not your old clapped out ideas.

by Spike that Spam! Wed May 20, 2009 19:00

What do I have to offer? - A true version of events rather that the shitflinging version Spam likes to spread when ever he or she can. All the links posted above by spam are just variations on a theme - no real alternatives at all.

As for what I suggest?

Better regulation of the banks for one.

The sacking of all MP's that were on the take.

The getting rid of red tape that stifles local business wherever in the UK and incentives for new business.

New business is the life blood of communities be it the local kebab house, local newsagent/internet cafe or pub.

Realistic taxation not taxation from envy.

Challenge anyone who simplistically states that ripping everything down is the answer!

So I have lots to offer on the topic and am doing so - whereas you in marked contrast offer nothing other than what you see is wrong with "capitalism" with utterly no idea or concept whatsoever as to what would replace it. Oh yes! - you say things like you are " extremely pleased to hear that I am "out of step" with the likes of you capitalists" whereas if you bothered to read what was written it actually said you were out of step with the majority.

But hey ! Maybe you are right!!! - You are out of step with capitalism - because the majority of the world IS in capitalist economies.

Silly me - you were admitting that all along

Meanwhile - those of us appalled by recent events will work hard at making things better. After all capitalism is free to make that choice whereas the old soviet dictatorships were run by people who purported to know best. Hmmmmmmm! I would rather have a benevolent capitalist system than the autocratic dictatorships of the extreme right or left.

So whereas some on here demand that others have something to "add" - those doing the demanding seem incapable of realising that what is written by all is valid - It just does not fit with their rather singular tunnel vision version of what the world should be.

The anger abuse and arrogance is born of their realisation of just how precarious and unpopular their "model" of what they want us all submit too, actually is.

The old left wing centralist government where a clique tells the rest of us what to do is long dead. Capitalist democratic systems, whilst not perfect are a far better option. After all look at what has happened to the speaker. Booted out! The first time for hundreds of years. Try that with Stalin and you would be holidaying in the Gulags.

Those who liken capitalists to paedophiles and try to insist that you cannot debate with capitalists are actually saying that they personally have no answers to the arguments put forward.

A clear admission of the paucity of the logic and realistic thinking of the left.

by Spike that Spam! Wed May 20, 2009 20:13

But in reality they are ever evolving.

Just as Mell-O points out - in every facet of society - someone will see an opportunity to add value.

Mell-O is upset because some take what is freely available by some and then sell it on. He calls this "greedy capitalist trader(s)" whereas everyone else just sees it as making a living most likely.

What you see as greedy capitalist most of us see as just being hard working normal way of life.

You may feel you want a "fairer greener sustainable ethical moral and principled value-system" and as I see it no one is stopping you from living that dream or goal. If you want it - you do it!

Just stop labelling the rest of us as greedy when you are living within and part of the capitalist society and before you object - You must be - because no doubt the PC or Laptop you use is made by a capitalist company in a capitalist country by someone who wants to earn more to send their kid to a better school or to save up for a new bike, new car new house whatever.

I have respect for those who dream then go on to live that dream by way of their actions.

As for those who sit behind a Microsoft enabled screen telling every one that they know the answer and that they want "fairer greener sustainable ethical moral and principled value-system, rather than the one that generated the hardware and software they use to say such things, and in so saying conveniently ignore all the human rights abuses of non free trade, non-capitalist economies that have been overrun by the free trade economies and capitalism? - well I am not at all surprised that " (you) don’t really want to know what you think", because clearly anything that challenges your beliefs and notions is deeply uncomfortable for you.

No doubt you would like such thoughts banned. Cuba is now embracing freedom but whilst it was a dictatorship it denied its population computors or even mobile phones! - Cannot have the population chatting as we are doing now!! Far too threatening to the idealistic peoples government.

What about asking for general censorship of any aberrant thoughts on paper/screen?

Now that works in a non-capitalist closed economy. You would need a Gulag or two though. For all of us free thinkers.

by spiv spammond Wed May 20, 2009 20:27

offer?

REJECTED.

bye now.

by Spike that Spam Thu May 21, 2009 06:33

Never thought you had the ability to think outside the box.

Thanks for demonstrating to all this fact.

"And its goodbye from him!"

by free Thu May 21, 2009 09:35

all this posting and counter posting of 'spammond' and 'spike that spam' etc. really is very childish. As usual these threads get hijacked by what are clearly 2 people having a row with each other under numerous names, as they do on so many threads.

If this was carried out on an egroup, everyone else would eventually leave the egroup, as they do when 2 people destroy the group by rowing and 'shouting' at each other with what are predominantly very low quality comments.

by Spammond Thu May 21, 2009 10:34

"you never thought"

Therein lies yours and the planets problems!

Oh and by the way, I was never in "the box"

by Redfieldian Thu May 21, 2009 10:48

I'm not sure a Bristol ££ would work, mainly because there are already schemes in place that pick up some of the ideas that have been suggested.

# Credit Unions are 'our' bank, with any money made as suplus being redistributed.

# Freecycle Bristol is runnimng succesfully

# There are LETS schemes where people 'swap' their labour & skills.

# There are any number of co-operatives in Bristol

I just think that a Bristol pound would overlap & duplicate, but, that never stopped Bristol Indymedia setting up their own 'indycyce/freecycle' scheme... what was that all about ???

by Irony Thu May 21, 2009 11:20

"What people forget is it (Bindymedia) is also an avowedly anti-capitalist project - if you want to talk about the Iron Law of the Profit Principle or how to avoid taxes, you're best off somewhere else.

Emphasis on ANTI CAPITALIST PROJECT.

I hope this is clear enough for you.

by discovery Thu May 21, 2009 11:56

"As usual these threads get hijacked by what are clearly 2 people having a row with each other under numerous names, as they do on so many threads. If this was carried out on an egroup, everyone else would eventually leave the egroup, as they do when 2 people destroy the group by rowing and 'shouting' at each other with what are predominantly very low quality comments."

Too right! It's obvious that's it's 2 people having the same old row with each other, and it's obvious who they are!

Low grade capitalist spin vs low grade anti-capitalist spin, neither of which grasp the economic fundamentals beyond the low grade spin each side lazily keeps on reheating, on thread after thread after thread.

I'm just glad I don't have to tolerate this low grade rubbish in my inbox! BIM is a great place, but it's contributors, on both sides of the fence, represent the most miserably incoherent aspects, and low grade comprehension, of both.

by (*-*) Thu May 21, 2009 12:20

I love the idea of having all my material needs being met locally!
I would dearly love to grow my own food, but like most folk I dont have any land.
I would SO love to be able to trust everybody I came into contact with.
It would be great to be part of a community or society whereby all the people in it cooperated for the common good.
No exploitation of others would be SO good.
No damage done to the environment would be SO perfect.
No damage done to future life would be SO wonderful.
How nice it would be if we all knew the true and essential value of everything.
Instead of the way it is now.
Where the capitalists can and will put a price on everything, yet know the value of nothing.
I love the idea of a local currency, but will the council accept it when i have to pay my community charge?
If not we shall have to change the council.
Will the utilities accept local currency to pay for gas and electricity I 'consume'?
If not we shall have to consume less and or create our own alternatives locally.
Will the fone-companies accept local currency to pay the bills?
If not we shall have to communicate in other ways or create alternatives.
But more importantly than all of the above, if I have more than i need to meet my personal material needs, will local currency be good if i wanted to send it to Africa for example?

by UK Citizen Thu May 21, 2009 12:46

You say that Bindymedia is "an avowedly anti-capitalist project"

Where in the guidelines, 'about us' or any other part of the site does it say this??

You may believe it, you may say it's implicit, but 'avowedly' needs a clear explicit public statement to that effect.

Else that is just your opinion, & nothing more.

by cc Thu May 21, 2009 14:30

what is our bristle monetary unit gonna look like?

is it gonna have - i promise to pay stamped on it?

who is gonna print it?

what will its value be? ............ that is the most interesting discussion point for me.

i kinda liked the sentiments contained in the comment from the 'face' poster (how did you do that)?

as to the 'static' on this and other threads, my 1st thoughts were that so called low-grade anti capitalist rubbish is far superior to pro capitalist rubbish

on 2nd thoughts maybe there is no such thing as low anti capitalist anything.

on 3rd thoughts everything about capitalism is low.

maybe we should all just ignore the captalist f***wit?

by Spike that Spam! Thu May 21, 2009 15:22

I have just checked and nowhere does it state anything other than:-

About Bristol Indymedia

Bristol Indymedia is a volunteer-run open-access news website composed of the news, views, images and videos of its readers/contributors. It is part of the global Indymedia movement, a project focused on grassroots non-commercial news written by ordinary people.

............

I state as "avowedly" as possible, that I see some on here wanting to shut down debate and make BIM a small minded mutual admiration society.

Fat chance.

by UK Citizen Thu May 21, 2009 16:09

Quote:- "so called low-grade anti capitalist rubbish is far superior to pro capitalist rubbish"

Mao, Stalin & Pol Pot were avowed anti-capitalists, as is/was Robert Mugabe.

Haven't really thought this through, have you........

by Spike that Spam! Thu May 21, 2009 16:09

Taking each point bin turn *-*

I love the idea of having all my material needs being met locally!
--So do I, I also see “going local” as a way of isolating us from national taxation of which very little gets fed back to local centres wherever you are in the UK.

I would dearly love to grow my own food, but like most folk I don’t have any land.
--Fine so bartering would be good or buying local produce with a Bristol Grote

I would SO love to be able to trust everybody I came into contact with.
--Errr! – First impressions are in my view pretty reliable.

It would be great to be part of a community or society whereby all the people in it cooperated for the common good.
--Now we may differ a bit here but to my mind the Free Trade economies do that pretty well because if makers made crap then no one would buy it. Only the old soviet system forced consumers to buy crap goods because there was no choice other than the substandard (by western standards) centrally designed Trabant type rubbish.

No exploitation of others would be SO good.
--What some see as exploitation others see as a step on the ladder.

No damage done to the environment would be SO perfect.
--Agreed, but as I have pointed out before – at least we in the West have “Polluter Pays” legislation. The old Soviet system and centralised governments generally produced the most shocking environmental disasters ever! Far far worse than anything the West has ever done. But the centralised Soviet government got away with it because it could! – it did not care about people or the environment. The West is not perfect and we should all strive to improve. But do not listen to those who jump on the environmental bandwagon only because their old mentors of the extreme left are no longer able to support them and in fact have given up on socialism as a bad joke and embraced the benefits of free trade.

No damage done to future life would be SO wonderful.
--Yes it would, but nature is not generally like you see in a Walt Disney film. From rabbits with fly strike to watching an elephant in Africa destroy a tree simply to get the tastiest leaves at the top, animal nature is designed to gain the advantage. Human nature is the same. Those that profess that all capitalists are greedy are simply trying to gain the advantage. The fail but that is their problem.

How nice it would be if we all knew the true and essential value of everything.
Instead of the way it is now.
--I would disagree because I see what a free society of the West can do. We can take on the Government over the Ghurkhas, MP’s expenses, and the appalling Wunch of Bankers that really ARE greedy. The mistake on here is that some seek to portray all advocates of the free market as greedy. That would be like saying all Socialists are as paranoid as Stalin.

Where the capitalists can and will put a price on everything, yet know the value of nothing.
--Again I disagree. The value of something has little relationship to its price. Whereas the price of something is born of the relationship of the cost of manufacture, distribution and profit for all in the chain. That is why I am such an advocate of a local currency – because with it, the profit can be distributed locally and prices kept lower if profit is not diluted by tax. Bartering is best, a Local currency a close second. Do not be swayed by trite sayings by those with an agenda that mean little in reality. Do the research then make you own mind up.

I love the idea of a local currency, but will the council accept it when I have to pay my community charge?
If not we shall have to change the council.
--I doubt that local government will be a supporter!

Will the utilities accept local currency to pay for gas and electricity I 'consume'?
--Again I doubt it.

If not we shall have to consume less and or create our own alternatives locally.
--Yes agreed - go for it!

Will the fone-companies accept local currency to pay the bills?
If not we shall have to communicate in other ways or create alternatives.
--Again – go for it – give us your ideas.

But more importantly than all of the above, if I have more than I need to meet my personal material needs, will local currency be good if I wanted to send it to Africa for example?

--Sorry to be blunt but a local currency is just that – Local.

--Would it not be better to take yourself of to places like Africa – plenty of charities want volunteers – that is what I did and it was the best thing I ever did – and still do. Money of what ever type is needed – but expertise is needed more. Debating from the safety of a sofa in Bristol is all very well, but nothing can compete with actually being there - wherever "there" is for you and taking part and improving the lot of others.

--You will come back with a real idea of what is required - not some tired old diatribe full of clichés from someone who is anti this anti that.

How do you think the average Masai pays for his goods? Not many ATM's in the Rift Valley :0)

by Spike that Spam! Thu May 21, 2009 16:15

"maybe we should all just ignore the captalist f***wit?"

In truth, - that is the only way you would win a debate! LOL!

You could also try putting your fingers in your ears and going La la la la la etc.

It seems to work for kids until they reach the age of about ten.

by Topic? Thu May 21, 2009 16:28

1. Play the ball and not the player.
2. Keep your comments on topic.
3. We want original comments that add information, or argue a point of view not re-heated bar-stool cliches.
4. Don't feed the trolls!

by Spike that Spam! Thu May 21, 2009 18:15

If only those who profess to be anti capitalist would abide by the first three guidelines and stop trolling themselves.

This is NOT an anti-capitalist site and no one has anymore rights to access it than anyone else.

For those who find this an alien concept - It is called Freedom. You may want to look it up.

by $pammond. Fri May 22, 2009 13:42

It could look like anything we like.

http://www.gracemillennium.com/sojourn/fall98/html/brou...e.htm

trust-note.

by Money Launderer Sat May 23, 2009 17:58

Re. Comment by Art: “Value of the currency unit is a key issue. What happens in Lewes is that you exchange GBS for a Lewes pound. The GBS is held securely and you can exchange your Lewes pounds back to GBS at any time. This gives the local currency its strength by way of parity to GBS.”

Parity with the £ sterling is, I think, the essential mechanism needed to make a Bristle Pound a realistic and sustainable option. This is the principle behind the Brixton Pound. The Brixton Pound is pegged to sterling and guaranteed by the Lambeth Savings and Credit Union so that the spender can exchange their money back to sterling at any time (although the concept would need a long/medium term commitment for it take hold). The Bristol Pound will encourage people to think about where their money is going and commit to spending a part of it locally (we have to be realistic here - we will never spend ALL of our hard earned cash locally).

The benefits are all for the local community and environment and basically side step the current discredited system. A local currency must be helpful in creating local jobs, and for encouraging people to buy food/goods that are not transported half way around the country/world before being dumped in big stores (a local currency would help to drastically reduce ‘food miles’ and the carbon emissions that result). As with the Brixton Pound the Bristol Pound will help support smaller shops and traders who are under threat from the recession and larger chains.

Re. by B.E.S.T of the rest comment: ‘things grow from small roots’ this is the appeal and the strength of the Bristol Pound concept. Creating links with a Credit Unions looks like a very practical starting point for this idea. So what next? We need to define the next step, perhaps suggest a meeting with an empathetic local credit union?

I think that essentially what is needed is the simply the will to make something like this happen. It’s already happening elsewhere.

I am not an economist and don’t have a head for figures but to me the concept deserves to become reality.

by Jah Thu Sep 17, 2009 09:06

What the heel, guys! Seriously!! This is just stupid. Why would you want to raise the local economy instead of raising the UK economy in a whole? Are you aware of the fact that since the crisis started, the pound has become ridiculously weak? Do you think this sort of thinking will raise the pound value? do you guys want to be stucked in Bristol for ever and not being able to travel, because you can't afford it? Come on...
No wonder why you guys have not accepted the euro, and unfortunately, there is a long way to go before it happens... Maybe when 1 euro will worth 2 pounds, you will finally realise how stupid you are. Europe is strong, Europe is the future. Proof is the euro rate still remains the same. UK is weakening and Bristol on its own is, well... Nothing!