Up to 60 people have been killed after missiles were fired from a US “drone” at the funeral of a suspected Taliban commander of the Pakistani Taliban in South Waziristan, Pakistan officials have said.
Al Jazeera’s Hyder said Tuesday’s attack was likely to cause considerable anger in the country.
“It may play into the hands of elements like Mehsud because the attack took place on a funeral – there are cultural sensitivities,” he said.
“Such attacks are likely to complicate the situation for the Pakistani military because they have to be equally sensitive to public opinion in that area – something that is not going to be helped by the drones.”
The attack by the unmanned aircraft was carried out in the village of Najmarai in the Makeen district on Tuesday, Pakistani intelligence officials and witnesses said.
EDO MBM /ITT corperation make Sabre weapons carriage systems believed to be used in this air strike
These drones will be commonplace in all our citys soon if we dont pull our finger out and stop it. Why dont people understand the basic facts, that Al Queda and the Taliban have always been, and still are funded by the C.I.A and british intelligence services. When are you all gonna wake up and realise the war on terror is a fake, and that it is a war against the people and the means to remove all of your rights!
Bin Laden died not long after 9/11. And yes, he was C.I.A, this is documented fact. Do you think the police spy drones in use in this country will not be equipped with weaponary? Have you not noticed the vicious police force we now have? Have you not spotted the spy forces being put into place? Who do you think they are spying on? Hmmm, let me think, oh yeh, it's us! We cant take photos of the police or anything now without being badged a terrorist!
by Coming to a town near youThu Jun 25, 2009 17:40
Why do you not think capitalists will not turn their wepons on us if we decide to go for independance from this corrupt state?
By' what-ever-means-necessary' to maintain business as usual - is these evil, selfish, bastards' mantra.
Intitial UK convertedRaytheon 'Sentinel' R Mk1 made it's first flight on 25th July 2005.
NATO 'airstrikes' leave 25 AFGAN CIVILIANS DEAD - INCLUDING 9 WOMEN & THREE BABIES. Reported on 23rd June, 2007
At the time it took the civilian death toll to 177. (That is more than the so called 'militants' had killed - they only managed 169).
A remote unmanned airial vehicle (UAV) destroyed a school killing at least nine people in the Waziristan in PAKISTAN. Reported Tuesday 9th September, 2008.
These are just two such events that come to mind.
UAV's have been flying over the UK for some time now...foe surveillance - sorry, FOR surveillance purposes, for some time now.
Women are subjugated by the Taliban. Discrimination against women is part of their male "culture"
Their interpretation of the Koran is corrupt and vile. Egyptian Scholars say that and are so appalled that the extremists corrupt the peaceful Koran that they now offer an online and telephone service for anyone who wishes to hear the truth about the Korans words and meaning.
We need to fight extremism with all our will and freedom. If you live by the sword you will die by the sword.
To say otherwise is a sop to extremists who just want conflict. Don't be sucked in.
Oh come on they only let off one bomb on the underground and that was totally because of the Iraq war and Bush Bliar. And as for the women, Islamic women like being oppressed, it's in their culture man, what are you some kind of racist? Don't fall for the neocon Mossad conspiracy to control your mind, zionists are everywhere!
Bush and Blair owners of the world were the last straw, before that for centuries we've been poking our vulgar white noses up their fundamentals.
Keep out of other peoples back yards and stop nicking their stuff.
What did we care about womens rights when we backed the Taliban against the Soviets?
Oh, forgot, we're there to help them form a democracy - after conveniently assassinating and imprisoning all the trade unionists and left wingers of any persuasion.
This arrogant supremacist attitude is astounding, we strut around in the middle east destroying anything that moves and expect them to take it?
How many deaths in the middle east can we attribute to war president Bush and peace envoy Blair? And this is just the latest round in centuries of atrocities.
When we get a dirty bomb in the UK, don't nobody wonder why.
....because you thought nobody would believe you if you hadn't.
well it doesn't work and you fool nobody.
the only thing that sickens war criminals is the possibility of their arms shares dropping in value due to peace breaking out.
how sickening that would be, for the truth to prevent you from mowing down the innocents at your current rate.
you never gave a monkeys about womens' rights in the 1980s when you were allied with the war lords, that is the real hypocrisy.
Now you hide behind womens rights, flavour of the day, as you perform your dirty work.
Your brave troops staying out of harms way by sending in unmanned drones to strafe farmers and weddings, along with the occasional taliban, shame on you.
Any part of Bristol the hipocrites want it to be as long as they can bend the reality to fit their line of best fit for their version.
Sickening hipocrisy .
Espose freedom and womens rights when it suits but the taliban are good guys really because us boys want to be on their side against the "whatever whatever Oppressers of freedom" Solidarity and all that.
Sod the fact that they mutilate womens genitalia, force them to walk arround in a black sack and forbid them any form of education.
Yeah right - what big boys you all are.
You should be proud? - i very much doubt you have even thought it through.
you appear to have an unhealthy obsession with genitilia, Truth
but you should at least learn how to spell the word
btw the noun genitilia is the plural of genital so when you said -
"....your chauvinist male arse and shoves your genetalia where you already mentally keep it"
you should more correctly have said -
....your chauvinist male arse and shoves your genitalia where you already mentally keep THEM
otherwise i suppose you may have a point, blow 'em all up and then they won't suffer at all.
many anti-abortionist have a similar kind of false logic, human life is sacred until birth (womens' rights come second), then send 'em into illegal wars.
The new world order where "Truth" is lies, wrong is right.
" a Bizarro World where up is down, right is wrong, and conservatives have morphed into Jacobins"
Raytheon are just one of the arms trade companies in OUR backyard here in Bristol. They aid and abeit the bombing of men WOMEN and children the world over - for profit.
Us Bristolians need to take responsibility for what results from activities in our 'manor'.
Understand now?
Anyone who watched that programme last night and saw how the fanatics were running the terrorists using mobile phones from their safe hideouts across the border and directing the killings in Mumbai will no doubt be saying that they are glad we have arms factories in the UK because after what I saw and the inhumanity demonstrated and the racism of the “Controllers” extorting the killing of innocent civilians in cold blood in the name of their God, I for one would be happy to have those people removed from the face of the earth. They are not worthy of the term religion. We are dealing with fanatics here.
As for the “boys” (see the attached) who were duped by evil men to be killers – well there are the gullible amongst us. Evidence of that gullibility is here for all to see where some think that the world will be rid of evil men like the Controllers if they sit on the roof of an arms factory.
Bill, the choice is not either support drone attacks or support Islamic radicals. This is the old Bush 'with us or with the terrorists' idea that does not work - even US commanders are coming out against the civilian death tolls - for thier own pragmatic reasons - that such attacks cost them heats and minds and without this winning a war against an insurgant group is impossible.
So personally I agree that Islamic radicals need to be stopped: So I want to see and end to drone attacks because they are not working - after years of such attacks and the war only expanding, it is time to admit that bombing from the air has not, will not and can not will this war.
While the USA and UK continue their bombing spree on funerals and weddings in outlying areas in Afghanistan and Pakistan, an increasing number of people around the world regard resistance to the New American Century not as terrorism but other countries fighting for the right to exist.
The scourge of western expansionism wars where money, not morals, holds sway over life and death. Where each member of capitalist populations consumes many times more of the world’s resources than their counterparts in less “advanced” societies.
WE are the scourge and this is the reality check.
Civilisations much older than ours, are being annihilated by the few for the few under a constant barrage of western weapons.
And they use women’s rights as the excuse? This is not the way to ensure women’s rights, quite the reverse.
The average person in the street is happy with a pie and a pint and a peaceful life. We don’t crave floating duck islands, moated castles, wisps of wiseria surrounding our chimneys. We crave politicians brave enough to stand up for a justice and morality in our society and in the world at large. We get sweet F A from this illegal pillage and we don’t ask for it. All that blood soaked loot goes to bolster arms shares, and into the pockets of bandit bankers and perjured politicians. We certainly don’t want on our consciences the deaths of so many in illegal wars, illegal wars deemed by our politicians necessary to uphold our “freedoms”.
Our parliament is mostly comprised of war criminals. They knew as they voted for Blair’s wars, just as the two million on the streets of London knew, that Blair and Alistaire Campbell were making it up as they went along in order to involve us in USA’s illegal invasions. Those who supported Blair are also guilty of his war crimes.
Probably most of those who did vote with Blair, and many of those who didn’t vote with Blair have been involved in the MP’s expenses scandal. They’ve been lining their pockets at a time when they should have been holding back USA and Friends in Israel. Friends in Israel continuing their sixty-year illegal immoral occupation, the brutal subjugation of a whole people.
And that is THE reality check.
The people who took to the roof of the weapons factory in January ’09 were protesting that UK weapons being manufactured there were being used in the execution of these war crimes at that time in Gaza by Israel.
A desperate and selfless act, protesting at a time when Israel was raining down white phosphorus on a blockaded people, while the civilised world looked away.
The fact that some of these humanitarian protestors have been in prison awaiting trial ever since then is an absolute scandal and could only take place in a country governed by war criminals.
Please write in disgust to your MP, who knows you may just have one with the moral strength to defy yankee and the zionist lobby.
And when the roof protestors case does finally come to court please attend to give them all the support they need and so richly deserve.
What did it for me was the way the Controllers calmly instructed the "boys" to shoot the Jewish Couple. This was a racist act and yet Retrospect above calmly states that it is all our fault in the west. How convenient. If you are going down the road of “My Enemies Enemy is my Friend” – then be careful who you jump into bed with.
What is being intimated above is total nonsense. Even Muslims themselves will tell you that it is the uneducated Imams from fanatic movements that want a Muslim world, and like the Nazis see themselves as superior and that “unbelievers” can be killed because they do not matter. Far from us in the west forcing ourselves on them - it is them that is hell bent on destroying us.
Only reason why some on here want to support this bunch of racist, sexist religious freaks is that they share the same goal because with all the naivety of someone nurtured by a benevolent society and with little real knowledge, it seems "big" to turn and bite the hand that feeds you.
I am not anti Muslim - far from it. Most of Pakistan wants the Taliban out. In Iran the population is revolting against the religious fanatics that it seems clear have rigged an election. So would I deal with my concerns by shooting and killing innocent Iranians or Pakistanis?
No of course I bloody well wouldn't! But to hear the Controllers saying that to shoot and Israeli gets you closer to heaven and that all "unbelievers" should be killed, followed by the oxymoron "(our) God is Great" just made me clear in my own mind that targeted take outs of these vicious religious fanatics to protect us all, Muslim, Hindu, Christian Jew, whatever - would be a very good idea indeed.
And the West recently went to war in the Balkans and has put Serbian Christian leaders on trial for war crimes at the Hague for ethnic cleansing against Muslims.
If you want to do no more than get a sore arse sitting on a roof then you do so - this is a free country that like most well educated Western Societies values life and values diversity - unlike the ones some on here seem to support.
We use unmanned drones they use brainwashed young kids. I think I know which methodology I prefer.
And as I have said before the controllers of Drones do try to avoid civilian damage.
The religious fanatics actively seek out innocent civilians.
As for the conflict in general:-
"Israeli troops killed hundreds of unarmed civilian adults and children, broke laws and committed war crimes during their winter offensive in Gaza, Amnesty International said in a scathing report released Thursday."
"The human rights group also pointed a finger at Hammas and other Palestinian militant organizations in its 117-page report. For firing hundreds of rockets into southern Israel, killing three Israeli civilians"
OK so the ratio is a bit skewed to say the least. But from what I see, the average Muslim does not want the likes of Hammas PLO whatever to keep poking the Israeli Tiger with a stick, because they know they will be the ones on the end of the shitstorm when that Israeli Tiger reacts.
Another good reason why targeting the fanatics is a damn good idea.
Meanwhile Muslims that may be sucked into the Fanatics lies and untruths can now contact Egyptian Imams via Cairo University and obtain a true and honest peaceful interpretation of the Koran - not the vindictive spiteful racist sexist claptrap from the uneducated bigots.
"The top hierarchy of al-Qaeda has taken such a hit from US missile strikes that Osama bin Laden and his deputy have had to replace people in the terrorist organisation with men they have never met, according to Western intelligence sources.
A dozen of al-Qaeda’s “senior management” have been killed by Predator drone attacks, which have been so effective in locating their targets that the militant group has been forced to move from traditional outdoor training camps to classroom-style facilities that are hidden from view. "
Would we in the UK not become fanatical if Yankee and Friends in Israel were over here kicking in OUR front doors, killing OUR families, stealing OUR homes land and possessions, bullying US about with impunity, jack-booting about OUR streets armed to the teeth?
Greed and domination is the name of the game, "....whatever the ostensible reasons given for war, they are always economic".
USA, UK and Friends in Israel with their brutal imperialist expansionism are creating the fanatics, people don't hit back for nothing.
And the fanatics thus created then provide the excuse for USA, UK, Israel to indulge in more barbaric slaughter for profit, domination, and in the case of Palestine, for territory.
Friends in Israel have been our cats-paw in the Middle East for many decades.
But in the end justice will prevail and thankfully the world is finally beginning to wise up to the terrible injustices and terrible suffering perpetrated on a whole people in the name of Israel.
Stop turning other peoples countries into a hell on earth - you have no right being there.
Just like leaving Saddam alone enabled him to invade Kuwait. Stop trying to wriggle out of the main point. We use drones they use suicide bombers
We TRY to avoid civilian casualties They aim to cause as many innocent civilian casualties as possible.
When you have fanatics within a religion that calls others "unbelievers" and states that they can be killed then you have racism of the worst order. Muslims in general are as appalled as most of are at the corruption of the wording of the Koran that actually preaches that you should honour other religions and faiths. It is the bigots and the racists and the sexists that spin the words to mean what they want.
Try selling your vision of a new world order to the relatives and those injured in Mumbai. At best they will ignore you.
What a burning sense of injustice they must harbour, that they feel compelled to end their lives in order to get back at us.
If the people we attack also had F16s and aircraft carriers they wouldn't need to resort to using their bodies as bombs against us. But then, if they had F16s we wouldn't attack them would we.
We only go for weak targets such as Iraq, broken by ten years of western sanctions.
And the 2009 blood-fest by our Friends in Israel, upon the blockaded-in population of Gaza. Like shooting fish in a barrel.
Christian neocons and zionists must also be classed as religious fanatics, especially when neocon christian evangelist Bush and roman catholic Bliar were at the helm, lying in their teeth in order to systematically reduce other people's countries to hell on earth, in their quest for Armageddon.
Nothing fanatical about "Full spectrum dominance" presumably.
"We TRY to avoid civilian casualties They aim to cause as many innocent civilian casualties as possible."
All that can be said about that statement is that we're not having much success if we are trying to avoid civilian casualties. The 2009 Gaza score was; deaths caused by Israel = 1400, deaths caused by Palestine = 3. And to compare suicide bombers with the hundreds of thousands killed by US-UK's presence in Iraq is totally ridiculous.
Remember "Shock and Awe" the carpet bombing of Baghdad, to get rid of one man.
Why didn't we use our special agents, the ones who have been fomenting dissent in the recent democratic elections of Iran, why didn't we use them to take out Saddam if as you say, "We TRY to avoid civilian casualties."?
It must take a certain kind of callous mentality to attempt to justify this wholesale slaughter by the west - so many deaths at our hands. An insatiable, unending blood-lust coldly calculated and directed by white collared, clean finger-nailed, men in suits, skilled in double-speak.
Historical foot-note: Kuwait was once part of the province of Basra and guess who disrupted that?
At OUR hands? Speak for your self retrospect. I haven't dropped any bombs lately, nor encouraged anyone else to... unlike some people I could mention.
If you want to continue justifying the behaviour of Islamic terrorists however you should defninitly watch the Dispatches video alluded to earlier: "Terror in mumbai".
Unfortunatley the people who have put it on the web are themselves nutty bigots but it is nonetheless a chilling document on just what kind of people your mates the Fundies are. And they are your mates - Stop The War Coalition have made it abundantly clear how they side with the terrorists and fundies, how Iran is a great democracy under attack from "imperialism" and how they "are all hezbollah"(or hamas.)
Think about it. Is India neocon? Is India Zionist? No, just happens to have a border with a terrorist state. A real one.
Monday, 27 April 2009
Israel emerged as India's number one defense partner last week when it was revealed that New Delhi had signed a US$1.4 billion deal with the country to purchase a 70 kilometer shore-based and sea borne anti-missile air defense system.
This is among the bigger defense deals between the two countries and the biggest military joint venture by India with a foreign country, overtaking the India-Russia BrahMos cruise missile project.
A senior defense official said the total value of the deal was over $2 billion, with one portion valued at $600 million being hived off to the state-controlled Defense Research and Development Organization
omg, i really cant believe some of the stuff im hearing on this one. Why dont we start with the following;
The Taliban and Al Q' are, and always have been funded by the CIA and british intelligence - undisputable fact.
IRA - was funded, trained and controlled by the british army - undisputable fact
So we pay them to cause the trouble in whichever country we need them, we then pretend we are chasing them but really taking over another country and ensuring the military supplies companies make a fortune and the banks that lend the cash make even more. This is what always happens, when we will all learn and say no to it? And i do not agree that this is 'our' fault. This is the fault of the elite, not us common people, i do not take responsibilty for any actions from criminals such as brown and blair.
I took your advice and watched the Dispatches program. A good program and terrifying in its implications for terrorism. The controllers of the cell in Pakistan were murderous, evil fanatics and must be stopped. The way they ordered the execution of civilians - chilling.
So I am interested in the best tactics to do the job;
"This could provide a blueprint for future operations around the south and east of Afghanistan," said Christopher Langton, a military analyst at the International Institute for Strategic Studies. "McChrystal [new US commander] has made himself quite clear. We won't expect to see 500lb bombs dropped from high altitude. I think they have finally woken up to this. It was something that was losing them the war."http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/02/us-offensiv...lmand
Glory be!
"McChrystal [new US commander] has made himself quite clear. We won't expect to see 500lb bombs dropped from high altitude. I think they have finally woken up to this. It was something that was losing the war."
We drop 500lb bombs on them from 30,000 feet they'll get back at us somehow.
And the same goes for drones destroying weddings and funerals.
This only stirs up hatred in millions of victims and thier supporters. It's probably already too late.
Thanks for nothing, those in charge. Have you no sence, can't you see cause and effect?
Afghanistan, where 9/11 was planned isn't in the middle east Twiggy and America was more than instrumental in getting rid of the Russians who were thrashing the mujahideen until they got access to stinger missiles from America which countered Russian air power, particularly the MIL Hind ground attack helicopter. It is ironic that they have therefore bitten the hand that fed them.
Saudi Arabia where Bin Laden came from has never been bombed by the West in the way that say Iraq was between the wars. In fact it has been made staggeringly rich by western oil money but strangely although Muslims there are wealthy and secure many are extremely and dangerously radical, as they are in all of the oil states. Most people think it is because of the intolerant and bigoted brand of Islam they are taught from childhood coupled with modern media acces (al Jazeera and all that) which enable them to identify and target their percieved enemy.
Saudi Arabian Islam’s anger at the abuse of Muslims is a fact but an even stranger fact is that in that state the usual focus of that anger, the Palestinians, are treated as lower class immigrant workers who are frequently used abused and generally mistreated. They are, for example disproportionately represented in that class of unfortunates who are punished for their crimes by being publicly beheaded. Somewhat peculiar to slate the west for human rights abuses don't you think when a Palestinian in the West could expect a jury trial and a prison sentence but in a islamic state like this they could expect to be treated to no meaningful judicial process and then have their head lopped off. Oddly however we are the oppressors. I can't get my head round that.
Off course you could also consider the Islamic republic of Iran who are also very much against the West, but they are against a lot of things, including 16 year old gay men who they hang from cranes in public or teenage girls who they shoot dead in public for watching a demonstration. What strange bedfellows your warped brand of self hating politics gives you.
Did you know that there is in fact a strong tradition of anti Semitism in Islam that long pre dates our current troubles, Hitler had a unit of Muslim SS troops . He commended them for their dedication and enthusiasm, the Jews were driven out of most Islamic countries generations ago. The real origins of much of this is an ancient racial and religious war of Biblical origins, as you rightly say it didn't start with 9/11. this is just it's latest incarnation.
So you may if you wish blame yourself, but some of us would come to the conclusion that many of the worlds Muslims are just plain vicious racist bigots, in that good old goose stepping tradition with a warped sense of history. Personally I couldn't reach an accommodation with people so intent on the public slaughter of anyone who stands in their way, or has a different sexuality (btw, young boys are very very popular in Afghanistan, quite a few battles have been fought over them), or for that matter hates and oppresses women, bans music or television or generally wants to live in the dark ages like a bunch of ignorant fuckwits.
In fact I would go so far as to say that it is in the interests of all of us to stop them at all costs and that MBM/ Raytheon and all the rest of them are just a necessary evil.
Well said indeed. Only thing you have missed out from my perspective is the appalling female genitalia mutilation these bigots go in for in order to "protect" their females. The reality is that that cannot abide the idea of a female enjoying normal relations and so mutilate her so that sex is painful. What an abomination – and yet some on here get more upset by my spelling than the reality of what happens to some women. Unbelievable!
You only have to go onto U tube to see the truly appalling female rights abuses these muslim extremists go in for.
How anyone can say we in the west are wrong to want to stop this and the other abuses of human rights is beyond me.
what was usa doing backing those evil religious fanatics with all the faults you describe so graphicly against a modern secular state?
and usa is more than friendly with the saudis to.
No disrespect intended to you Twiggy but the aggressive exportation of such fundamentalist bigotry in the name of the Muslim religion that we see now is a relatively recent development. And whilst I am no fan of the USA's foreign policy, it is fair to say that the idea of the old Soviet Block dominating that part of the world was not something anyone thought was a good idea - apart from the Soviets of course.
In the same way as the West with enormous help from the US took on the same sort of Christian based bigotry and defended Muslims from ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, so too did the West when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan.
What is different now is that the Taliban managed to step into the power vacuum when the Soviets withdrew and the US with all the maturity of an infant said "job done, leave them to it, and let’s go home guys". The Taliban, with their racist bigotry let the world know how they re-write history by destroying some amazing statues carved into rock by Buddhists. As far as the Taliban are concerned other religions did not exist and so they had to destroy the "evidence" of reality by destroying amazing works of art so that they could re-write history.
These people are not the working class peasants being put upon by the big bad boys of the West. They are bigoted racists that see you and I as non-muslims as little more than vermin and if they kill us then they just get to their heaven with seven virgins to pop a little quicker. The real true muslim religion is nothing like this and the Koran teaches respect for other peoples and other religions
For those of us of all religions that want an equal world for all, an end to racism and an end to bigotry, these extreme fundamentalists are no one to look up to or idolise.
Is it worse than destroying statues to destroy villages of living people because what a few terrorists did thousands get bombed.
because 2 buildings were hit in america 2 countries get destroyed if all that money spent on bombs was used to help people.
if we set a good example we would be doing good.
pl;ease somebdy teache me some maths cus it dosnt add up in my brain.
Stop shooting at the Taliban. Go to Afghanistan to do good things with money saved from bombs etc. Lay drains build schools hospitals etc etc. Billions spent. Taliban come along say "Oh look unbelievers, the bastards are attempting to educate and care for women and children, lets kill them". Result, you’re dead so are all the care and aid workers (remember them, gunned down in the street). The Taliban go back to smashing TV’s, making men grow beards and beating women for showing their ankles in public. Nil return on investment.
Alternative strategy, kill and destabilise Taliban first by engaging them at every level possible, including across the border where they hide amongst a willing population of equally stupid religious bigots in Waziristan, the land that time forgot. Stabilise economy, build schools, educate children not to think like superstitious medieval half wits. Care for them, teach them that there is such a thing as human rights and universal human values e.g, that it is wrong to publicly shoot women in the back of the head in a football stadium for having extra marital affairs.
Result, incalculable return on investment that cannot be measured in money. Yes, it may be part of the great game that's been played there for centuries over oil and influence but if this is part of the outcome then it's a game worth playing. It may not be perfect but it’s better than nothing.
If you do not want to learn or see the truth then no one can force you.
If you want to dismiss the destruction of history such that the taliban can re-write it then that is for you and your conscience to live with. Same goes for the religious persecutions and the violence demonstrated by these bigoted fanatics.
it would be nice to have a perfect world but most people think this war is doing more harm than good and far too many people are getting hurt cos are troops are there.
i respect your opinions so i hope you respect theres and mine in a democracy. http://www.mfaw.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&tas...id=28
The age group most opposed to the war was 18- to 24-year-olds, 75% of whom said they wanted troops pulled out.
I do not agree with them. But you are right we live in a democracy and some are unlucky enough not to. So you have the ability to state your views. Some in the world are not able to.
But before you follow the isolationist ideal, please consider that all it takes for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing.
my dad and gramp join a union until we had the freedoms.
i no bullys that force people to do things and bullys are evil.
we should show people the right way and not drop bombs on them.
this is what the people i no say and they are not evil people.
I agree - there are not many evil people in the UK. And those we have generally act alone and not in a concerted group.
But with any fanatical movement that believes it has greater rights and that "non believers" have no human rights then here we see true evil. Because no religion anywhere in the worlds says that they are best and that other religions can be exterminated.
That is why the destruction of the Statues by the taliban indicate a fanatics wish to destroy history so that their skewed version is the "only truth". Any fanatic that says they have more rights than others and therefore they will mutilate girls, and they will kill people indiscriminately does not want to listen to reason.
There are two ways of dealing with a bully. First is to try to reason with them, and when that does not work you kick them so hard they never forget that you are stronger than they are but with more self control because bullies are always cowards.
We see that with the Mumbai atrocity. Cowardly controllers running the brainwashed boys from the safety of being on the other side of a telephone connection.
It is all very well "turning the other cheek" but that only works when you have mutual respect. When the other side has been brainwashed into thinking that by killing you they will get to their heaven a bit quicker, you need to take a stand.
And with the way the taliban treats its own people, your idea of running away and letting them get on with it is not an option many of us feel comfortable with.
parlament safe in london told the army to bomb iraq now lots of people dont like the army which is wrong.
parlament are doing it to afghanistan as well and the army drops bombs on lots of people and there friends.
it is there countrys so give the good people there time to get there own freedoms like my dad and gramp did and dont bomb them all before they can.
it is worse in iraq and it is worse in afghanistan it isnt nice to no ar country is a bully.
That if you saw someone being beaten up and abused you would do nothing apart from thinking that should get themselves organised into a union?
Human rights violations are violations against us all. If we stand back and do nothing then we are as bad as those that perpetrate the crime.
The point is about freedom is that your family had to work hard to get the freedom you and I now enjoy, but they did not do it on their own. Many people supported them.
How would your Father and Grandfather feel when you tell them that whilst it is OK for you to enjoy your freedom and Human Rights, you do not think those oppressed mutilated and killed by the taliban should have the same rights as we do.
I think they would be ashamed, that after all their hard work to gain hard one freedoms you are not prepared to do as they did.
Human right of free speech, freedom to worship what you want and freedom to wear what you want and not to have your body mutilated are freedoms for all. Frankly I am staggered that anyone on here is trying to say otherwise.
And if the taliban ideals were such a good idea why is it that the people of Pakistan in general, who are Muslims too, want them gone. The army of Pakistan is fighting the taliban on their side of the border so why is that then? Muslim against Muslim fanatic - I suppose you could say that this is the "good people" sorting their own problems out.
So giving the good people a little help should not be a problem.
"One Soviet soldier recalls an instance in 1987 when his unit opened fire on what they took to be a 'mujaheddin caravan.' The Russians soon discovered that they had slaughtered a roving wedding party on its way from one village to another -- a blunder that soon, all too predictably, inspired a series of revenge attacks on the Red Army troops in the area. This undoubtedly sounds wearily familiar to U.S. and NATO planners (and Afghan government officials) struggling to contain the effects from the 'collateral damage' that is often cited today as one of the major sources of the West's political problems in the country." http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175092/are_afghan_lives...hing_
So why will it work now?
Doing stuff in an insurgency that kills civilians is the path to loosing the war.
When you give up and let the bigots hang a homosexual lad from a tree because you feel safe here in Bristol and don't give a f*ck for your fellow man.
You lose the war when you don't care that a young girl is mutilated because you do not have to meet her in your safe zone here in Bristol
You lose the war when you allow others to destroy all evidence of other cultures so that they can manipulate the truth.
You lose the war when you have no moral compass, no spine, no backbone just an ability to turn a blind eye.
Then the bigots bring the war to you. As they did just four ago yesterday.
If as you intimate that it really is not going to work because in any war there are sadly going to be civilian casualties and you see this as a reason to stop, why then are you expecting the fundiefanatics to stop blowing up and killing their preferred targets?????
After all - they actually TARGET civilians. By your own words you confirm that when we do it, it is a tragic deeply regrettable mistake.
Not sure you have got a handle on the reality here.
there is 1 taliban in crowds of people and you kill them all this is not looking after there rights.
God is looking after all the people who died when you bombed them with 1 taliban and he will look in blairs heart and he will look in bushes heart and he will look in your heart and mine.
i care about those people and you say i do not.
it is cos i care that i no we should not bomb other countrys saying its for there rights but really were making there lifes worse like iraq.
God dosnt look on the outside he looks on the inside and evryone you bomb is worth just as much as you ar and i am to God.
The fact remains that they deliberately target civilians
The taliban do not worship the Muslim religion - they worship a skewed spun version of bigotry set down be evil men who want power.
The fact remains that they deliberately target civilians.
The chilling phone calls during the Mumbai attacks prove that. And that fact has done more to harden the hearts and the steel the resolve of all those who value freedom. I do not want religious bigotry of any shape colour or form. The overt racism against Jews shown during the despatches programme and the cold clinical way they instructed the "boys" to kill innocent men women and children will stay with me forever.
The fact remains that they deliberately target civilians
I notice that is a point you constantly ignore.
You also ignore the racism
You also ignore the sexist bigotry
You also ignore that they targeted civilians of all religions race and creed 4 years and one day ago.
As far as I can see, if they stopped wanting to kill us and to force the world to become under medieval cruel Shari law, then I would not want to be in their country at all. So why don’t you tell them to leave us alone and we will let them be. After all they blew up part of Nairobi, they planted a bomb in the World Trade centre, they hijacked aircraft by slitting the throats of female flight attendants with Stanley knives and flew them into buildings, they set of bombs in Bali, they blew up bombs in the London Underground and blew up a London Bus.
They planned to bring down six planes over the Atlantic but failed.
They tried to blow up Glasgow airport but failed.
All we are doing is going for the perpetrators and trainers of the “boys” they send on the suicide missions to kill innocent civilians. I see no problem with that. And neither does most of the country looking at the homecoming parades for the Armed Forces when they return home.
most people you bombed beleive God just like we do only they give Him diffrent names but you only tell what a few taliban beleive.
you bombed there countrys first and bombed and chased them out that is why they do bad things.
it is cos you bombed them first they want to hurt us back but only a tiny few
then you shout about the tiny few and say look at the bad things they do we must bomb them harder and have there countrys.
but you bomb to many good people and it is not your countrys.
how do you no about God when you havnt been dead yet
Unless you believe in reincarnation or that the dead can communicate with us.
As for your other questions, there is always going to be the chicken and the egg situation. It was only a short while ago that the West supported the Mujahadeen against the Soviets. Now the Soviet bloc has imploded and the silly Americans walked out leaving a power vacuum to which the taliban walked into. They would not have the power they do if the US had not screwed up.
And yes the taliban are a small minority - and from your own words this means that as a minority the majority of the population in Pakistan and Afghanistan does not want their belligerent bigoted version of their religion. Far from it.
Why do you think so many people from that region want to leave and live here if we are the enemy?
Pakistan - the biggest Muslim country in the region does not want a taliban stronghold on and over its border and so they are fighting the taliban as well, but you suffer from a bit of tunnel vision here it seems ;0)
This report likens the conflict to Bosnia and Rwanda - and indeed it is. It is another conflict where the West has been sucked into a relatively small conflict to protect the freedoms we believe in.
I do not see how anyone can advocate that we leave the civilian populations of places like Rwanda, Bosnia or Afghanistan to the War Lords of hate who abuse human rights. If you want to turn your back on others and walk away that is your choice but you will have to live with your conscience.
The French and the rest of Europe have just celebrated the anniversary of D-Day when many nations combined to remove a dictator with appalling human rights abuses to his name. During the conflict many innocent lives were lost but today those nations freed celebrate and honour those nations that fought to free them. That freedom allows you to post on here. It allows us to disagree with ourselves and our Government. It allows us to wear what we want travel where we want and to say what we want.
What do you think the French, the Belgians, the Dutch etc would think of us if we had done a deal with the devil to protect ourselves at their cost. You have to have a moral compass or you are lost.
While Bush was an evil b*stard who deliberately sabotaged the WoT to make money, it isn't the Americans who have invaded Pakistan and forced a medieval judicial system on the natives, and it isn't the Americans who attacked Mumbai, London, Barcelona, New York, Casablanca, and places all over Africa in the last decade and a half. That was Al-Qaeda. Remember them? Blew up that ship one time? Fancy themselves as architecture critics?
Now I don't neccisarily agree with the way the war is being fought or the corrupt regime that's been put in power in Kabul, but pulling out of Afghanistan / Pakistan would be a terrible mistake, with consequences that don't bear thinking about - especially when you consider that Pakistan has about 100 nuclear weapons. Do you fancy Al-Qaeda with a nuke or ten? Do you know what one of those things could do to a town? Everything in a five-mile radius would look like downtown Fallujah. And that's the small ones.
The ruling elite in the West cares nothing for human rights or democracy, only that states do as they are told and open their countries to the economic operations of global corporations.
Women’s issues are also used as pretext and excuse for the pursuit of greed and domination.
Democracies are overthrown with the same alacrity as the worst dictatorships if they do not “toe the line”. The worst dictatorships are counted as allies and armed to the teeth by the likes of BAE Systems, Lockheed Martin, EDO et al. All that is required of such countries as Saudi Arabia is their obedience – not the freedom of their inhabitants.
Islamists, be they Taliban or Wahhabi, are not the only fanatics in this world, there are other subtler enemies of humanity, equally cruel, just as vicious and much more powerful.
It is pointless to support any of them – they all lead us on “the same ruinous path down into the void”.
If rattling people’s cages is your objective then you carry on.
But if you think that a strange comment well of the wall of reality , that is offensive and disrespectful to all those who work for human and women’s rights throughout the world is somehow a "cage rattler" then your argument cannot have much substance.
The only trolls on here are the glassy eyed SWP ones who are so consumed by their own self hatred and defeatism that they can't see the wood for the trees.
Good job by the mods for wiping Mr C. Hammonds garbage from these threads.
The rest of us are grateful to you guys for doing a very unpleasant job for little reward.
Thank you.
"The mass media exulted in the fact that the normally quiet and demure first lady, whose role throughout the 2000 presidential campaign was to look like a smiling mannequin, became the only first lady to deliver an entire presidential address solo. Mainstream journalists did not question the ferocity of her implied threat, however politely delivered, to spread the war to other countries. Nor did they dwell on the Bush administration's sudden about-face on women's rights.......Two days after his inauguration, with his first executive order, Bush launched an attack on abortion rights internationally.....This effectively denies the right to choose to millions of poor women around the world—nearly 80,000 of whom die each year from unsafe abortions,..."
"The mass media has mentioned, but chosen not dwell on, the embarrassing contrast between the Bush administration's stated outrage over the Taliban's treatment of women and its silence over gender apartheid as practiced by U.S. allies such as Saudi Arabia and Kuwait."
"It seems that the U.S. has achieved through bombs what it failed to achieve through wining and dining the Taliban. The goal remains the same: to amass yet more profits for already massively profitable U.S. oil companies. Furthering its own global dominance motivated the U.S. war against Afghanistan, not any desire to free Afghan women."
"The women who lived through the devastation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki may beg to differ on the usefulness of weapons as a means to advance women's rights, and they may also have a different recollection of their American occupiers. As liberal journalist David Corn pointed out recently:"
"Business Week's editors did not explain how the U.S. qualifies as "tolerant" for bombing the populations of its political opponents to smithereens."
"Those interested in winning genuine liberation for Afghan women must firmly reject the notion that U.S. bombs can advance the interests of women—in Afghanistan or anywhere else. U.S. military intervention advances only the interests of U.S. rulers, who care nothing about women's rights."
I've just listened to 'Any Questions?' on the radio coming form the town of Consett, County Durham, and the question of Afghanistan came up.
After the discussion on Afghanistan, Jonathon Dimbleby put it to the audience, "How many in the audience think that Afghanistan is a lost cause?"
In the show of hands that followed, the 'Any Questions?' audience almost unanimously indicated that they thought that Afghanistan is a lost cause.
Then he asked who in the audience thought it was "a right cause", and only four in the audience raised their hands.
Is it Socialist Worker's Party or is it Stop War Party?
Most attack kittens are against aggressive war, including the one sitting on my lap as i type.
BTW, twigers should have another g.
Do you think that blowing up a ton of Africans, an American warship, half New York's financial district, some public transport in London and Barcelona, as well as shooting and blopwing up a LOT of Indians and Pakistanis on multiple occaisions, as well as actually invading a part of Pakistan and setting up your own occupational government there also counts as "aggressive war"? 'Cos the Taliban and Al Qaeda have done all those things, and they don't seem to want to stop.
Endless war, the the sought after achievement of politicians and their friends in the arms trade.
Expose those war criminal politicians who brought us to this, expose them and bring them to justice for lying to us.
Bring our troops home, do not allow them to be used in aggressive wars for loot, abandon the imperialist mindset.
Have a reality check, GREAT Britain, an Empire where the sun never sets?
As we watch you destroy countries, people are past the apathetic stage and are now cynical of anything you tell us, (see above, Any Questions?).
Now you struggle to recruit enough people to keep our armed forces up to strength, why? Because people don't wish to be regarded as little more than the next rack of expendable bombs in this endless war that is only making rich fraudsters richer and causing so much hatred in the world.
Restore the trust of the ordinary people in our legal system and in our magnificent armed forces, ordinary peoples sons laying down their lives for, well, to put it in the best light, inachievable aims.
Of course you will always get a minority that commit atrocities, but to get back at this infinitesimal few by destroying vast populations of civilians who had no part in it is plain wicked. The trillions spent on turning other peoples countries into radio-active wastelands should have been used to build bridges.
Lead by example you win more hearts and minds that way and in the end the fanatics, on both sides, will go out of style.
No doubt you will rubbish this comment with your usual derogatory invective, but your method of bomb, bomb, bomb hasn't exactly been a glowing success has it?
Presumably, if you believe that the Taliban et al should be left alone because there only getting back at us for past aggression then you would have reached an accomodation with Nazi Germany on the grounds that they were only trying to reclaim their social and cultural identity after the humiliation of the first world war and the crippling financial reparations that followed. The second world war was wholly avoidable and largely the fault of Great Britain and America but it didn't alter the fact that they were the nations, along with Soviet Russia, who then had to deal with the consequences by using force to destroy the thing they created.
Surely, if you create a monster it's your responsibility to deal with it, by force if necessary. I would be interested to know exactly how anyone could seriously negotiate with a belief system that does not recognise anyone elses right to exist. The Pakistani government has just tried it in Swat, only to find that the Taliban's reaction was to ignore the agreement reached, institute a medieval reign of terror in which anyone who opposed them was killed and then simply took over as an occupying force.
Incidentaly, I don't accept that the West is responsible for the creation of the Taliban, the blame if anything lies with Russia, but since some people here do i'm just following the logic of your own argument to it's conclusion.
You also might like to consider the fact that if the very powerful and influential forces of radical Islam active in that region were to succeed in toppling the Pakistani government, which is their aim, they would be in possesion of a nuclear armed military in a state of constant tension with their nuclear armed neighbour India. The command and control in Pakistans military is so poor that their have been ocassions when they have deployed nuclear weapons in what they saw as a reaction to Indian deployments without any political authority to do so, ie they simply got ready to fire them because they felt like it. With the Taliban and their friends in control surrounded by a Nation of unbelievers what do you think the chances of a nuclear exchange would be. I think it would be close to 100%. That is of course before you get into questions like who they might give that technology to or who else besides India they might fire a weapon at. Were they to be implicated in any way in an atack on say America or another Western state it would probably trigger a nuclear armaggedon of cold war proportions. If they are able to fly hijacked aeroplanes into buildings or bomb tube trains to cause maximum casualties what moral limit prevents the firing of a nuclear weapon. When you embrace death and believe acheiving it is the ultimate triumph you simply cannot be reasoned with.
Are you seriously suggesting that we should simply leave them all to it.
Well, I guess the evil of USUK and Spain as tools of teh evil US Imperialism knows no bounds, enough to justify the random slaughter of American office workers and British and Spanish commuters on their way to work in your eyes, Question Time. So I guess as far as your concenred aggressive war is justified, as long as it's Al Q and the Taliban doing it - right?
So let me guess - all those Africans, Pakistanis and Indians that they also killed were part of BUSH BLIAR, US IMPERIALISM and teh Zionard conspiracy to abolish old fashioned light bulbs too.
What did all those Africans and Indians and Pakistanis that the Taliban / Al quaeda killed do to the Taliban? As that little Indian boy says in that Dispaches doc: What did we ever do to them?
Evidently you have not done your research into causes Operator. you need to go back quite a few centuries before the USA was 'born' even - to fully understand whats happening now. But I'm sure you will not let a minor detail like historical facts get in the way of your presumptions, opinions and assumptions.
So your saying that we might all die because it's all our fault that centuries ago Jeebus was rude to Muhammed, or something?
That's just pathetic.
...
Go on then. Enlighten us all with your wisdom. Tell us how events centuries ago led directly and inevitably to the Taliban indiscriminately murdering people all around the world, and how they had it coming really because of whatever it was that happened, but it's still wrong for anyone else to fight the Taliban and if they do they're tools of US Imperialuism (TM).
#1 - "So you DO condone acts of agression and the killing of civilians"'
#2 - "So your saying that we might all die because it's all our fault that centuries ago Jeebus was rude to Muhammed".
#3 - "So I guess as far as your concerned aggressive war is justified".
None of your above sentences are questions, they are your opinions only.
IF you are serious about debating important issues then perhaps you should consider NOT putting words into another persons mouth.
Everyone nicely forgets that the war at home is Imperialism pretending to be home sweet home. The oxygen is being burned out of the air supply rapidly and is approaching none sufficient oxygen to live on. Thats what happens with burning fossil fuels. What could be worse than an air supply that sufficates its population, while pretending to be necessary for your good and well being. Sounds Germanic almost.
make this your indymedia front page
Wednesday June 24, 2009 12:23
by Stig
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Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77These drones will be commonplace in all our citys soon if we dont pull our finger out and stop it. Why dont people understand the basic facts, that Al Queda and the Taliban have always been, and still are funded by the C.I.A and british intelligence services. When are you all gonna wake up and realise the war on terror is a fake, and that it is a war against the people and the means to remove all of your rights!
and Osama Bin Laden is actually a top ranking member of MI5 heavy disguisesd, that's why no one has captured him yet.
Is in a CIA safe house in Slough, along with Elvis.
Bin Laden died not long after 9/11. And yes, he was C.I.A, this is documented fact. Do you think the police spy drones in use in this country will not be equipped with weaponary? Have you not noticed the vicious police force we now have? Have you not spotted the spy forces being put into place? Who do you think they are spying on? Hmmm, let me think, oh yeh, it's us! We cant take photos of the police or anything now without being badged a terrorist!
WAKE UP BEFORE THE NEXT HOLOCAUST TAKES PLACE!
Why do you not think capitalists will not turn their wepons on us if we decide to go for independance from this corrupt state?
By' what-ever-means-necessary' to maintain business as usual - is these evil, selfish, bastards' mantra.
Intitial UK convertedRaytheon 'Sentinel' R Mk1 made it's first flight on 25th July 2005.
NATO 'airstrikes' leave 25 AFGAN CIVILIANS DEAD - INCLUDING 9 WOMEN & THREE BABIES. Reported on 23rd June, 2007
At the time it took the civilian death toll to 177. (That is more than the so called 'militants' had killed - they only managed 169).
A remote unmanned airial vehicle (UAV) destroyed a school killing at least nine people in the Waziristan in PAKISTAN. Reported Tuesday 9th September, 2008.
These are just two such events that come to mind.
UAV's have been flying over the UK for some time now...foe surveillance - sorry, FOR surveillance purposes, for some time now.
Women are subjugated by the Taliban. Discrimination against women is part of their male "culture"
Their interpretation of the Koran is corrupt and vile. Egyptian Scholars say that and are so appalled that the extremists corrupt the peaceful Koran that they now offer an online and telephone service for anyone who wishes to hear the truth about the Korans words and meaning.
We need to fight extremism with all our will and freedom. If you live by the sword you will die by the sword.
To say otherwise is a sop to extremists who just want conflict. Don't be sucked in.
Oh come on they only let off one bomb on the underground and that was totally because of the Iraq war and Bush Bliar. And as for the women, Islamic women like being oppressed, it's in their culture man, what are you some kind of racist? Don't fall for the neocon Mossad conspiracy to control your mind, zionists are everywhere!
Bush and Blair owners of the world were the last straw, before that for centuries we've been poking our vulgar white noses up their fundamentals.
Keep out of other peoples back yards and stop nicking their stuff.
What did we care about womens rights when we backed the Taliban against the Soviets?
Oh, forgot, we're there to help them form a democracy - after conveniently assassinating and imprisoning all the trade unionists and left wingers of any persuasion.
This arrogant supremacist attitude is astounding, we strut around in the middle east destroying anything that moves and expect them to take it?
How many deaths in the middle east can we attribute to war president Bush and peace envoy Blair? And this is just the latest round in centuries of atrocities.
When we get a dirty bomb in the UK, don't nobody wonder why.
....because you thought nobody would believe you if you hadn't.
well it doesn't work and you fool nobody.
the only thing that sickens war criminals is the possibility of their arms shares dropping in value due to peace breaking out.
how sickening that would be, for the truth to prevent you from mowing down the innocents at your current rate.
you never gave a monkeys about womens' rights in the 1980s when you were allied with the war lords, that is the real hypocrisy.
Now you hide behind womens rights, flavour of the day, as you perform your dirty work.
Your brave troops staying out of harms way by sending in unmanned drones to strafe farmers and weddings, along with the occasional taliban, shame on you.
Which bit of Bristol is South Waziristan in then. Is it near the same part as Palestine by any chance
Any part of Bristol the hipocrites want it to be as long as they can bend the reality to fit their line of best fit for their version.
Sickening hipocrisy .
Espose freedom and womens rights when it suits but the taliban are good guys really because us boys want to be on their side against the "whatever whatever Oppressers of freedom" Solidarity and all that.
Sod the fact that they mutilate womens genitalia, force them to walk arround in a black sack and forbid them any form of education.
Yeah right - what big boys you all are.
You should be proud? - i very much doubt you have even thought it through.
you appear to have an unhealthy obsession with genitilia, Truth
but you should at least learn how to spell the word
btw the noun genitilia is the plural of genital so when you said -
"....your chauvinist male arse and shoves your genetalia where you already mentally keep it"
you should more correctly have said -
....your chauvinist male arse and shoves your genitalia where you already mentally keep THEM
otherwise i suppose you may have a point, blow 'em all up and then they won't suffer at all.
many anti-abortionist have a similar kind of false logic, human life is sacred until birth (womens' rights come second), then send 'em into illegal wars.
The new world order where "Truth" is lies, wrong is right.
" a Bizarro World where up is down, right is wrong, and conservatives have morphed into Jacobins"
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j010904.html
Raytheon are just one of the arms trade companies in OUR backyard here in Bristol. They aid and abeit the bombing of men WOMEN and children the world over - for profit.
Us Bristolians need to take responsibility for what results from activities in our 'manor'.
Understand now?
Anyone who watched that programme last night and saw how the fanatics were running the terrorists using mobile phones from their safe hideouts across the border and directing the killings in Mumbai will no doubt be saying that they are glad we have arms factories in the UK because after what I saw and the inhumanity demonstrated and the racism of the “Controllers” extorting the killing of innocent civilians in cold blood in the name of their God, I for one would be happy to have those people removed from the face of the earth. They are not worthy of the term religion. We are dealing with fanatics here.
As for the “boys” (see the attached) who were duped by evil men to be killers – well there are the gullible amongst us. Evidence of that gullibility is here for all to see where some think that the world will be rid of evil men like the Controllers if they sit on the roof of an arms factory.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2009/jul/01/last-nigh...eview
Bill, the choice is not either support drone attacks or support Islamic radicals. This is the old Bush 'with us or with the terrorists' idea that does not work - even US commanders are coming out against the civilian death tolls - for thier own pragmatic reasons - that such attacks cost them heats and minds and without this winning a war against an insurgant group is impossible.
So personally I agree that Islamic radicals need to be stopped: So I want to see and end to drone attacks because they are not working - after years of such attacks and the war only expanding, it is time to admit that bombing from the air has not, will not and can not will this war.
While the USA and UK continue their bombing spree on funerals and weddings in outlying areas in Afghanistan and Pakistan, an increasing number of people around the world regard resistance to the New American Century not as terrorism but other countries fighting for the right to exist.
The scourge of western expansionism wars where money, not morals, holds sway over life and death. Where each member of capitalist populations consumes many times more of the world’s resources than their counterparts in less “advanced” societies.
WE are the scourge and this is the reality check.
Civilisations much older than ours, are being annihilated by the few for the few under a constant barrage of western weapons.
And they use women’s rights as the excuse? This is not the way to ensure women’s rights, quite the reverse.
The average person in the street is happy with a pie and a pint and a peaceful life. We don’t crave floating duck islands, moated castles, wisps of wiseria surrounding our chimneys. We crave politicians brave enough to stand up for a justice and morality in our society and in the world at large. We get sweet F A from this illegal pillage and we don’t ask for it. All that blood soaked loot goes to bolster arms shares, and into the pockets of bandit bankers and perjured politicians. We certainly don’t want on our consciences the deaths of so many in illegal wars, illegal wars deemed by our politicians necessary to uphold our “freedoms”.
Our parliament is mostly comprised of war criminals. They knew as they voted for Blair’s wars, just as the two million on the streets of London knew, that Blair and Alistaire Campbell were making it up as they went along in order to involve us in USA’s illegal invasions. Those who supported Blair are also guilty of his war crimes.
Probably most of those who did vote with Blair, and many of those who didn’t vote with Blair have been involved in the MP’s expenses scandal. They’ve been lining their pockets at a time when they should have been holding back USA and Friends in Israel. Friends in Israel continuing their sixty-year illegal immoral occupation, the brutal subjugation of a whole people.
And that is THE reality check.
The people who took to the roof of the weapons factory in January ’09 were protesting that UK weapons being manufactured there were being used in the execution of these war crimes at that time in Gaza by Israel.
A desperate and selfless act, protesting at a time when Israel was raining down white phosphorus on a blockaded people, while the civilised world looked away.
The fact that some of these humanitarian protestors have been in prison awaiting trial ever since then is an absolute scandal and could only take place in a country governed by war criminals.
Please write in disgust to your MP, who knows you may just have one with the moral strength to defy yankee and the zionist lobby.
And when the roof protestors case does finally come to court please attend to give them all the support they need and so richly deserve.
Well, yes, from Alexander onwards. Taliban vs the rest is just the latest (& I would guess not the last) chapter.
As far as writing to my MP goes, I will, but only in self interest.
Do I fancy the taliban getting hold of Pakistan's nuclear weapons? No.
Will I support British troops being deployed in the region to fight the taliban? Yes.
Do civilians get killed in wars? Sadly yes, in London, New York, Barcelona, Delhi, Pakistan, Afghanisatan etc etc etc.
What did it for me was the way the Controllers calmly instructed the "boys" to shoot the Jewish Couple. This was a racist act and yet Retrospect above calmly states that it is all our fault in the west. How convenient. If you are going down the road of “My Enemies Enemy is my Friend” – then be careful who you jump into bed with.
What is being intimated above is total nonsense. Even Muslims themselves will tell you that it is the uneducated Imams from fanatic movements that want a Muslim world, and like the Nazis see themselves as superior and that “unbelievers” can be killed because they do not matter. Far from us in the west forcing ourselves on them - it is them that is hell bent on destroying us.
Only reason why some on here want to support this bunch of racist, sexist religious freaks is that they share the same goal because with all the naivety of someone nurtured by a benevolent society and with little real knowledge, it seems "big" to turn and bite the hand that feeds you.
I am not anti Muslim - far from it. Most of Pakistan wants the Taliban out. In Iran the population is revolting against the religious fanatics that it seems clear have rigged an election. So would I deal with my concerns by shooting and killing innocent Iranians or Pakistanis?
No of course I bloody well wouldn't! But to hear the Controllers saying that to shoot and Israeli gets you closer to heaven and that all "unbelievers" should be killed, followed by the oxymoron "(our) God is Great" just made me clear in my own mind that targeted take outs of these vicious religious fanatics to protect us all, Muslim, Hindu, Christian Jew, whatever - would be a very good idea indeed.
And the West recently went to war in the Balkans and has put Serbian Christian leaders on trial for war crimes at the Hague for ethnic cleansing against Muslims.
If you want to do no more than get a sore arse sitting on a roof then you do so - this is a free country that like most well educated Western Societies values life and values diversity - unlike the ones some on here seem to support.
watch this Stig et al.
We use unmanned drones they use brainwashed young kids. I think I know which methodology I prefer.
And as I have said before the controllers of Drones do try to avoid civilian damage.
The religious fanatics actively seek out innocent civilians.
As for the conflict in general:-
"Israeli troops killed hundreds of unarmed civilian adults and children, broke laws and committed war crimes during their winter offensive in Gaza, Amnesty International said in a scathing report released Thursday."
"The human rights group also pointed a finger at Hammas and other Palestinian militant organizations in its 117-page report. For firing hundreds of rockets into southern Israel, killing three Israeli civilians"
OK so the ratio is a bit skewed to say the least. But from what I see, the average Muslim does not want the likes of Hammas PLO whatever to keep poking the Israeli Tiger with a stick, because they know they will be the ones on the end of the shitstorm when that Israeli Tiger reacts.
Another good reason why targeting the fanatics is a damn good idea.
Meanwhile Muslims that may be sucked into the Fanatics lies and untruths can now contact Egyptian Imams via Cairo University and obtain a true and honest peaceful interpretation of the Koran - not the vindictive spiteful racist sexist claptrap from the uneducated bigots.
Shows just how effective these things are.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east...1.ece
"The top hierarchy of al-Qaeda has taken such a hit from US missile strikes that Osama bin Laden and his deputy have had to replace people in the terrorist organisation with men they have never met, according to Western intelligence sources.
A dozen of al-Qaeda’s “senior management” have been killed by Predator drone attacks, which have been so effective in locating their targets that the militant group has been forced to move from traditional outdoor training camps to classroom-style facilities that are hidden from view. "
Would we in the UK not become fanatical if Yankee and Friends in Israel were over here kicking in OUR front doors, killing OUR families, stealing OUR homes land and possessions, bullying US about with impunity, jack-booting about OUR streets armed to the teeth?
Greed and domination is the name of the game, "....whatever the ostensible reasons given for war, they are always economic".
USA, UK and Friends in Israel with their brutal imperialist expansionism are creating the fanatics, people don't hit back for nothing.
And the fanatics thus created then provide the excuse for USA, UK, Israel to indulge in more barbaric slaughter for profit, domination, and in the case of Palestine, for territory.
Friends in Israel have been our cats-paw in the Middle East for many decades.
But in the end justice will prevail and thankfully the world is finally beginning to wise up to the terrible injustices and terrible suffering perpetrated on a whole people in the name of Israel.
Stop turning other peoples countries into a hell on earth - you have no right being there.
Leave, and watch fanaticism subside.
Just like leaving Saddam alone enabled him to invade Kuwait. Stop trying to wriggle out of the main point. We use drones they use suicide bombers
We TRY to avoid civilian casualties They aim to cause as many innocent civilian casualties as possible.
When you have fanatics within a religion that calls others "unbelievers" and states that they can be killed then you have racism of the worst order. Muslims in general are as appalled as most of are at the corruption of the wording of the Koran that actually preaches that you should honour other religions and faiths. It is the bigots and the racists and the sexists that spin the words to mean what they want.
Try selling your vision of a new world order to the relatives and those injured in Mumbai. At best they will ignore you.
What a burning sense of injustice they must harbour, that they feel compelled to end their lives in order to get back at us.
If the people we attack also had F16s and aircraft carriers they wouldn't need to resort to using their bodies as bombs against us. But then, if they had F16s we wouldn't attack them would we.
We only go for weak targets such as Iraq, broken by ten years of western sanctions.
And the 2009 blood-fest by our Friends in Israel, upon the blockaded-in population of Gaza. Like shooting fish in a barrel.
Christian neocons and zionists must also be classed as religious fanatics, especially when neocon christian evangelist Bush and roman catholic Bliar were at the helm, lying in their teeth in order to systematically reduce other people's countries to hell on earth, in their quest for Armageddon.
Nothing fanatical about "Full spectrum dominance" presumably.
"We TRY to avoid civilian casualties They aim to cause as many innocent civilian casualties as possible."
All that can be said about that statement is that we're not having much success if we are trying to avoid civilian casualties. The 2009 Gaza score was; deaths caused by Israel = 1400, deaths caused by Palestine = 3. And to compare suicide bombers with the hundreds of thousands killed by US-UK's presence in Iraq is totally ridiculous.
Remember "Shock and Awe" the carpet bombing of Baghdad, to get rid of one man.
Why didn't we use our special agents, the ones who have been fomenting dissent in the recent democratic elections of Iran, why didn't we use them to take out Saddam if as you say, "We TRY to avoid civilian casualties."?
It must take a certain kind of callous mentality to attempt to justify this wholesale slaughter by the west - so many deaths at our hands. An insatiable, unending blood-lust coldly calculated and directed by white collared, clean finger-nailed, men in suits, skilled in double-speak.
Historical foot-note: Kuwait was once part of the province of Basra and guess who disrupted that?
At OUR hands? Speak for your self retrospect. I haven't dropped any bombs lately, nor encouraged anyone else to... unlike some people I could mention.
If you want to continue justifying the behaviour of Islamic terrorists however you should defninitly watch the Dispatches video alluded to earlier: "Terror in mumbai".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edsRBijAx_U&feature=related
Unfortunatley the people who have put it on the web are themselves nutty bigots but it is nonetheless a chilling document on just what kind of people your mates the Fundies are. And they are your mates - Stop The War Coalition have made it abundantly clear how they side with the terrorists and fundies, how Iran is a great democracy under attack from "imperialism" and how they "are all hezbollah"(or hamas.)
Think about it. Is India neocon? Is India Zionist? No, just happens to have a border with a terrorist state. A real one.
Monday, 27 April 2009
Israel emerged as India's number one defense partner last week when it was revealed that New Delhi had signed a US$1.4 billion deal with the country to purchase a 70 kilometer shore-based and sea borne anti-missile air defense system.
This is among the bigger defense deals between the two countries and the biggest military joint venture by India with a foreign country, overtaking the India-Russia BrahMos cruise missile project.
A senior defense official said the total value of the deal was over $2 billion, with one portion valued at $600 million being hived off to the state-controlled Defense Research and Development Organization
http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/5573/102/
Zionists in 2009 massacred 1500 people they blocaded into a narrow strip of land and dropped white phosphorus on them.
Our taxes help pay for the guiding systems for these bombs
omg, i really cant believe some of the stuff im hearing on this one. Why dont we start with the following;
The Taliban and Al Q' are, and always have been funded by the CIA and british intelligence - undisputable fact.
IRA - was funded, trained and controlled by the british army - undisputable fact
So we pay them to cause the trouble in whichever country we need them, we then pretend we are chasing them but really taking over another country and ensuring the military supplies companies make a fortune and the banks that lend the cash make even more. This is what always happens, when we will all learn and say no to it? And i do not agree that this is 'our' fault. This is the fault of the elite, not us common people, i do not take responsibilty for any actions from criminals such as brown and blair.
I took your advice and watched the Dispatches program. A good program and terrifying in its implications for terrorism. The controllers of the cell in Pakistan were murderous, evil fanatics and must be stopped. The way they ordered the execution of civilians - chilling.
So I am interested in the best tactics to do the job;
"This could provide a blueprint for future operations around the south and east of Afghanistan," said Christopher Langton, a military analyst at the International Institute for Strategic Studies. "McChrystal [new US commander] has made himself quite clear. We won't expect to see 500lb bombs dropped from high altitude. I think they have finally woken up to this. It was something that was losing them the war." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/02/us-offensiv...lmand
Glory be!
"McChrystal [new US commander] has made himself quite clear. We won't expect to see 500lb bombs dropped from high altitude. I think they have finally woken up to this. It was something that was losing the war."
We drop 500lb bombs on them from 30,000 feet they'll get back at us somehow.
And the same goes for drones destroying weddings and funerals.
This only stirs up hatred in millions of victims and thier supporters. It's probably already too late.
Thanks for nothing, those in charge. Have you no sence, can't you see cause and effect?
They fly planes into buildings based on the premis that we are all unbelievers and can be killed in a racist biggoted fundiefest..
That pisses people off.
Simple isn't it.
They fly planes into are buildings because we bombed there buildings in the mIddle east since year dot
Truth is even simpler
Afghanistan, where 9/11 was planned isn't in the middle east Twiggy and America was more than instrumental in getting rid of the Russians who were thrashing the mujahideen until they got access to stinger missiles from America which countered Russian air power, particularly the MIL Hind ground attack helicopter. It is ironic that they have therefore bitten the hand that fed them.
Saudi Arabia where Bin Laden came from has never been bombed by the West in the way that say Iraq was between the wars. In fact it has been made staggeringly rich by western oil money but strangely although Muslims there are wealthy and secure many are extremely and dangerously radical, as they are in all of the oil states. Most people think it is because of the intolerant and bigoted brand of Islam they are taught from childhood coupled with modern media acces (al Jazeera and all that) which enable them to identify and target their percieved enemy.
Saudi Arabian Islam’s anger at the abuse of Muslims is a fact but an even stranger fact is that in that state the usual focus of that anger, the Palestinians, are treated as lower class immigrant workers who are frequently used abused and generally mistreated. They are, for example disproportionately represented in that class of unfortunates who are punished for their crimes by being publicly beheaded. Somewhat peculiar to slate the west for human rights abuses don't you think when a Palestinian in the West could expect a jury trial and a prison sentence but in a islamic state like this they could expect to be treated to no meaningful judicial process and then have their head lopped off. Oddly however we are the oppressors. I can't get my head round that.
Off course you could also consider the Islamic republic of Iran who are also very much against the West, but they are against a lot of things, including 16 year old gay men who they hang from cranes in public or teenage girls who they shoot dead in public for watching a demonstration. What strange bedfellows your warped brand of self hating politics gives you.
Did you know that there is in fact a strong tradition of anti Semitism in Islam that long pre dates our current troubles, Hitler had a unit of Muslim SS troops . He commended them for their dedication and enthusiasm, the Jews were driven out of most Islamic countries generations ago. The real origins of much of this is an ancient racial and religious war of Biblical origins, as you rightly say it didn't start with 9/11. this is just it's latest incarnation.
So you may if you wish blame yourself, but some of us would come to the conclusion that many of the worlds Muslims are just plain vicious racist bigots, in that good old goose stepping tradition with a warped sense of history. Personally I couldn't reach an accommodation with people so intent on the public slaughter of anyone who stands in their way, or has a different sexuality (btw, young boys are very very popular in Afghanistan, quite a few battles have been fought over them), or for that matter hates and oppresses women, bans music or television or generally wants to live in the dark ages like a bunch of ignorant fuckwits.
In fact I would go so far as to say that it is in the interests of all of us to stop them at all costs and that MBM/ Raytheon and all the rest of them are just a necessary evil.
Well said indeed. Only thing you have missed out from my perspective is the appalling female genitalia mutilation these bigots go in for in order to "protect" their females. The reality is that that cannot abide the idea of a female enjoying normal relations and so mutilate her so that sex is painful. What an abomination – and yet some on here get more upset by my spelling than the reality of what happens to some women. Unbelievable!
You only have to go onto U tube to see the truly appalling female rights abuses these muslim extremists go in for.
How anyone can say we in the west are wrong to want to stop this and the other abuses of human rights is beyond me.
what was usa doing backing those evil religious fanatics with all the faults you describe so graphicly against a modern secular state?
and usa is more than friendly with the saudis to.
No disrespect intended to you Twiggy but the aggressive exportation of such fundamentalist bigotry in the name of the Muslim religion that we see now is a relatively recent development. And whilst I am no fan of the USA's foreign policy, it is fair to say that the idea of the old Soviet Block dominating that part of the world was not something anyone thought was a good idea - apart from the Soviets of course.
In the same way as the West with enormous help from the US took on the same sort of Christian based bigotry and defended Muslims from ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, so too did the West when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan.
What is different now is that the Taliban managed to step into the power vacuum when the Soviets withdrew and the US with all the maturity of an infant said "job done, leave them to it, and let’s go home guys". The Taliban, with their racist bigotry let the world know how they re-write history by destroying some amazing statues carved into rock by Buddhists. As far as the Taliban are concerned other religions did not exist and so they had to destroy the "evidence" of reality by destroying amazing works of art so that they could re-write history.
It is still going on
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,515958....html
These people are not the working class peasants being put upon by the big bad boys of the West. They are bigoted racists that see you and I as non-muslims as little more than vermin and if they kill us then they just get to their heaven with seven virgins to pop a little quicker. The real true muslim religion is nothing like this and the Koran teaches respect for other peoples and other religions
For those of us of all religions that want an equal world for all, an end to racism and an end to bigotry, these extreme fundamentalists are no one to look up to or idolise.
Is it worse than destroying statues to destroy villages of living people because what a few terrorists did thousands get bombed.
because 2 buildings were hit in america 2 countries get destroyed if all that money spent on bombs was used to help people.
if we set a good example we would be doing good.
pl;ease somebdy teache me some maths cus it dosnt add up in my brain.
Here's the maths Twiggy.
Stop shooting at the Taliban. Go to Afghanistan to do good things with money saved from bombs etc. Lay drains build schools hospitals etc etc. Billions spent. Taliban come along say "Oh look unbelievers, the bastards are attempting to educate and care for women and children, lets kill them". Result, you’re dead so are all the care and aid workers (remember them, gunned down in the street). The Taliban go back to smashing TV’s, making men grow beards and beating women for showing their ankles in public. Nil return on investment.
Alternative strategy, kill and destabilise Taliban first by engaging them at every level possible, including across the border where they hide amongst a willing population of equally stupid religious bigots in Waziristan, the land that time forgot. Stabilise economy, build schools, educate children not to think like superstitious medieval half wits. Care for them, teach them that there is such a thing as human rights and universal human values e.g, that it is wrong to publicly shoot women in the back of the head in a football stadium for having extra marital affairs.
Result, incalculable return on investment that cannot be measured in money. Yes, it may be part of the great game that's been played there for centuries over oil and influence but if this is part of the outcome then it's a game worth playing. It may not be perfect but it’s better than nothing.
Good luck to Raytheon et al, we need them.
If you do not want to learn or see the truth then no one can force you.
If you want to dismiss the destruction of history such that the taliban can re-write it then that is for you and your conscience to live with. Same goes for the religious persecutions and the violence demonstrated by these bigoted fanatics.
If you want to go down that road you do so.
You can lead a horse to water springs to mind.
it would be nice to have a perfect world but most people think this war is doing more harm than good and far too many people are getting hurt cos are troops are there.
i respect your opinions so i hope you respect theres and mine in a democracy.
http://www.mfaw.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&tas...id=28
The age group most opposed to the war was 18- to 24-year-olds, 75% of whom said they wanted troops pulled out.
I do not agree with them. But you are right we live in a democracy and some are unlucky enough not to. So you have the ability to state your views. Some in the world are not able to.
But before you follow the isolationist ideal, please consider that all it takes for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing.
my dad and gramp join a union until we had the freedoms.
i no bullys that force people to do things and bullys are evil.
we should show people the right way and not drop bombs on them.
this is what the people i no say and they are not evil people.
I agree - there are not many evil people in the UK. And those we have generally act alone and not in a concerted group.
But with any fanatical movement that believes it has greater rights and that "non believers" have no human rights then here we see true evil. Because no religion anywhere in the worlds says that they are best and that other religions can be exterminated.
That is why the destruction of the Statues by the taliban indicate a fanatics wish to destroy history so that their skewed version is the "only truth". Any fanatic that says they have more rights than others and therefore they will mutilate girls, and they will kill people indiscriminately does not want to listen to reason.
There are two ways of dealing with a bully. First is to try to reason with them, and when that does not work you kick them so hard they never forget that you are stronger than they are but with more self control because bullies are always cowards.
We see that with the Mumbai atrocity. Cowardly controllers running the brainwashed boys from the safety of being on the other side of a telephone connection.
It is all very well "turning the other cheek" but that only works when you have mutual respect. When the other side has been brainwashed into thinking that by killing you they will get to their heaven a bit quicker, you need to take a stand.
And with the way the taliban treats its own people, your idea of running away and letting them get on with it is not an option many of us feel comfortable with.
parlament safe in london told the army to bomb iraq now lots of people dont like the army which is wrong.
parlament are doing it to afghanistan as well and the army drops bombs on lots of people and there friends.
it is there countrys so give the good people there time to get there own freedoms like my dad and gramp did and dont bomb them all before they can.
it is worse in iraq and it is worse in afghanistan it isnt nice to no ar country is a bully.
That if you saw someone being beaten up and abused you would do nothing apart from thinking that should get themselves organised into a union?
Human rights violations are violations against us all. If we stand back and do nothing then we are as bad as those that perpetrate the crime.
The point is about freedom is that your family had to work hard to get the freedom you and I now enjoy, but they did not do it on their own. Many people supported them.
How would your Father and Grandfather feel when you tell them that whilst it is OK for you to enjoy your freedom and Human Rights, you do not think those oppressed mutilated and killed by the taliban should have the same rights as we do.
I think they would be ashamed, that after all their hard work to gain hard one freedoms you are not prepared to do as they did.
Human right of free speech, freedom to worship what you want and freedom to wear what you want and not to have your body mutilated are freedoms for all. Frankly I am staggered that anyone on here is trying to say otherwise.
And if the taliban ideals were such a good idea why is it that the people of Pakistan in general, who are Muslims too, want them gone. The army of Pakistan is fighting the taliban on their side of the border so why is that then? Muslim against Muslim fanatic - I suppose you could say that this is the "good people" sorting their own problems out.
So giving the good people a little help should not be a problem.
"One Soviet soldier recalls an instance in 1987 when his unit opened fire on what they took to be a 'mujaheddin caravan.' The Russians soon discovered that they had slaughtered a roving wedding party on its way from one village to another -- a blunder that soon, all too predictably, inspired a series of revenge attacks on the Red Army troops in the area. This undoubtedly sounds wearily familiar to U.S. and NATO planners (and Afghan government officials) struggling to contain the effects from the 'collateral damage' that is often cited today as one of the major sources of the West's political problems in the country."
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175092/are_afghan_lives...hing_
So why will it work now?
Doing stuff in an insurgency that kills civilians is the path to loosing the war.
When you give up and let the bigots hang a homosexual lad from a tree because you feel safe here in Bristol and don't give a f*ck for your fellow man.
You lose the war when you don't care that a young girl is mutilated because you do not have to meet her in your safe zone here in Bristol
You lose the war when you allow others to destroy all evidence of other cultures so that they can manipulate the truth.
You lose the war when you have no moral compass, no spine, no backbone just an ability to turn a blind eye.
Then the bigots bring the war to you. As they did just four ago yesterday.
If as you intimate that it really is not going to work because in any war there are sadly going to be civilian casualties and you see this as a reason to stop, why then are you expecting the fundiefanatics to stop blowing up and killing their preferred targets?????
After all - they actually TARGET civilians. By your own words you confirm that when we do it, it is a tragic deeply regrettable mistake.
Not sure you have got a handle on the reality here.
there is 1 taliban in crowds of people and you kill them all this is not looking after there rights.
God is looking after all the people who died when you bombed them with 1 taliban and he will look in blairs heart and he will look in bushes heart and he will look in your heart and mine.
i care about those people and you say i do not.
it is cos i care that i no we should not bomb other countrys saying its for there rights but really were making there lifes worse like iraq.
God dosnt look on the outside he looks on the inside and evryone you bomb is worth just as much as you ar and i am to God.
The fact remains that they deliberately target civilians
The taliban do not worship the Muslim religion - they worship a skewed spun version of bigotry set down be evil men who want power.
The fact remains that they deliberately target civilians.
The chilling phone calls during the Mumbai attacks prove that. And that fact has done more to harden the hearts and the steel the resolve of all those who value freedom. I do not want religious bigotry of any shape colour or form. The overt racism against Jews shown during the despatches programme and the cold clinical way they instructed the "boys" to kill innocent men women and children will stay with me forever.
The fact remains that they deliberately target civilians
I notice that is a point you constantly ignore.
You also ignore the racism
You also ignore the sexist bigotry
You also ignore that they targeted civilians of all religions race and creed 4 years and one day ago.
As far as I can see, if they stopped wanting to kill us and to force the world to become under medieval cruel Shari law, then I would not want to be in their country at all. So why don’t you tell them to leave us alone and we will let them be. After all they blew up part of Nairobi, they planted a bomb in the World Trade centre, they hijacked aircraft by slitting the throats of female flight attendants with Stanley knives and flew them into buildings, they set of bombs in Bali, they blew up bombs in the London Underground and blew up a London Bus.
They planned to bring down six planes over the Atlantic but failed.
They tried to blow up Glasgow airport but failed.
All we are doing is going for the perpetrators and trainers of the “boys” they send on the suicide missions to kill innocent civilians. I see no problem with that. And neither does most of the country looking at the homecoming parades for the Armed Forces when they return home.
most people you bombed beleive God just like we do only they give Him diffrent names but you only tell what a few taliban beleive.
you bombed there countrys first and bombed and chased them out that is why they do bad things.
it is cos you bombed them first they want to hurt us back but only a tiny few
then you shout about the tiny few and say look at the bad things they do we must bomb them harder and have there countrys.
but you bomb to many good people and it is not your countrys.
how do you no about God when you havnt been dead yet
Who does?
Unless you believe in reincarnation or that the dead can communicate with us.
As for your other questions, there is always going to be the chicken and the egg situation. It was only a short while ago that the West supported the Mujahadeen against the Soviets. Now the Soviet bloc has imploded and the silly Americans walked out leaving a power vacuum to which the taliban walked into. They would not have the power they do if the US had not screwed up.
And yes the taliban are a small minority - and from your own words this means that as a minority the majority of the population in Pakistan and Afghanistan does not want their belligerent bigoted version of their religion. Far from it.
Why do you think so many people from that region want to leave and live here if we are the enemy?
Pakistan - the biggest Muslim country in the region does not want a taliban stronghold on and over its border and so they are fighting the taliban as well, but you suffer from a bit of tunnel vision here it seems ;0)
http://www.theirc.org/special-report/special-report-pak...TsBKw
This report likens the conflict to Bosnia and Rwanda - and indeed it is. It is another conflict where the West has been sucked into a relatively small conflict to protect the freedoms we believe in.
I do not see how anyone can advocate that we leave the civilian populations of places like Rwanda, Bosnia or Afghanistan to the War Lords of hate who abuse human rights. If you want to turn your back on others and walk away that is your choice but you will have to live with your conscience.
The French and the rest of Europe have just celebrated the anniversary of D-Day when many nations combined to remove a dictator with appalling human rights abuses to his name. During the conflict many innocent lives were lost but today those nations freed celebrate and honour those nations that fought to free them. That freedom allows you to post on here. It allows us to disagree with ourselves and our Government. It allows us to wear what we want travel where we want and to say what we want.
What do you think the French, the Belgians, the Dutch etc would think of us if we had done a deal with the devil to protect ourselves at their cost. You have to have a moral compass or you are lost.
While Bush was an evil b*stard who deliberately sabotaged the WoT to make money, it isn't the Americans who have invaded Pakistan and forced a medieval judicial system on the natives, and it isn't the Americans who attacked Mumbai, London, Barcelona, New York, Casablanca, and places all over Africa in the last decade and a half. That was Al-Qaeda. Remember them? Blew up that ship one time? Fancy themselves as architecture critics?
Now I don't neccisarily agree with the way the war is being fought or the corrupt regime that's been put in power in Kabul, but pulling out of Afghanistan / Pakistan would be a terrible mistake, with consequences that don't bear thinking about - especially when you consider that Pakistan has about 100 nuclear weapons. Do you fancy Al-Qaeda with a nuke or ten? Do you know what one of those things could do to a town? Everything in a five-mile radius would look like downtown Fallujah. And that's the small ones.
The ruling elite in the West cares nothing for human rights or democracy, only that states do as they are told and open their countries to the economic operations of global corporations.
Women’s issues are also used as pretext and excuse for the pursuit of greed and domination.
Democracies are overthrown with the same alacrity as the worst dictatorships if they do not “toe the line”. The worst dictatorships are counted as allies and armed to the teeth by the likes of BAE Systems, Lockheed Martin, EDO et al. All that is required of such countries as Saudi Arabia is their obedience – not the freedom of their inhabitants.
Islamists, be they Taliban or Wahhabi, are not the only fanatics in this world, there are other subtler enemies of humanity, equally cruel, just as vicious and much more powerful.
It is pointless to support any of them – they all lead us on “the same ruinous path down into the void”.
So whats your point Clairsyeux, they're all bad so lets hide under the bed.
It is pointless to support any of them – they all lead us on “the same ruinous path down into the void”.
Exactly Clairsyeux. I'm sick of this bullshit enemy-of-my-enemyism from the lefties. They can all sod off as far as I'm concerned.
What a strange comment.
"Women’s issues are also used as pretext and excuse for the pursuit of greed and domination."
So as soon as someone speaks up for womens rights in Afghanistan they do it purely as a "pretext and excuse in the pursuit of greed and domination"
There is no need for anyone to make any comment at all.
I think the words of this individual say it all.
How the trolls are out in force tonight, it isn't hallowe'en or something is it?
Clairsyeux, you must have hit a nerve, you certainly rattled their cage!
Excellent comment, very well put!
If rattling people’s cages is your objective then you carry on.
But if you think that a strange comment well of the wall of reality , that is offensive and disrespectful to all those who work for human and women’s rights throughout the world is somehow a "cage rattler" then your argument cannot have much substance.
The only trolls on here are the glassy eyed SWP ones who are so consumed by their own self hatred and defeatism that they can't see the wood for the trees.
People who disagree with twiggy / the SWP / Respect = trolls
Good job by the mods for wiping Mr C. Hammonds garbage from these threads.
The rest of us are grateful to you guys for doing a very unpleasant job for little reward.
Thank you.
"The mass media exulted in the fact that the normally quiet and demure first lady, whose role throughout the 2000 presidential campaign was to look like a smiling mannequin, became the only first lady to deliver an entire presidential address solo. Mainstream journalists did not question the ferocity of her implied threat, however politely delivered, to spread the war to other countries. Nor did they dwell on the Bush administration's sudden about-face on women's rights.......Two days after his inauguration, with his first executive order, Bush launched an attack on abortion rights internationally.....This effectively denies the right to choose to millions of poor women around the world—nearly 80,000 of whom die each year from unsafe abortions,..."
"The mass media has mentioned, but chosen not dwell on, the embarrassing contrast between the Bush administration's stated outrage over the Taliban's treatment of women and its silence over gender apartheid as practiced by U.S. allies such as Saudi Arabia and Kuwait."
"It seems that the U.S. has achieved through bombs what it failed to achieve through wining and dining the Taliban. The goal remains the same: to amass yet more profits for already massively profitable U.S. oil companies. Furthering its own global dominance motivated the U.S. war against Afghanistan, not any desire to free Afghan women."
"The women who lived through the devastation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki may beg to differ on the usefulness of weapons as a means to advance women's rights, and they may also have a different recollection of their American occupiers. As liberal journalist David Corn pointed out recently:"
"Business Week's editors did not explain how the U.S. qualifies as "tolerant" for bombing the populations of its political opponents to smithereens."
"Those interested in winning genuine liberation for Afghan women must firmly reject the notion that U.S. bombs can advance the interests of women—in Afghanistan or anywhere else. U.S. military intervention advances only the interests of U.S. rulers, who care nothing about women's rights."
http://www.isreview.org/issues/21/afghan_women.shtml
I've just listened to 'Any Questions?' on the radio coming form the town of Consett, County Durham, and the question of Afghanistan came up.
After the discussion on Afghanistan, Jonathon Dimbleby put it to the audience, "How many in the audience think that Afghanistan is a lost cause?"
In the show of hands that followed, the 'Any Questions?' audience almost unanimously indicated that they thought that Afghanistan is a lost cause.
Then he asked who in the audience thought it was "a right cause", and only four in the audience raised their hands.
Your just an SWP drone twiggy
Is it Socialist Worker's Party or is it Stop War Party?
Most attack kittens are against aggressive war, including the one sitting on my lap as i type.
BTW, twigers should have another g.
Question for you, twiggy:
Do you think that blowing up a ton of Africans, an American warship, half New York's financial district, some public transport in London and Barcelona, as well as shooting and blopwing up a LOT of Indians and Pakistanis on multiple occaisions, as well as actually invading a part of Pakistan and setting up your own occupational government there also counts as "aggressive war"? 'Cos the Taliban and Al Qaeda have done all those things, and they don't seem to want to stop.
Endless war, the the sought after achievement of politicians and their friends in the arms trade.
Expose those war criminal politicians who brought us to this, expose them and bring them to justice for lying to us.
Bring our troops home, do not allow them to be used in aggressive wars for loot, abandon the imperialist mindset.
Have a reality check, GREAT Britain, an Empire where the sun never sets?
As we watch you destroy countries, people are past the apathetic stage and are now cynical of anything you tell us, (see above, Any Questions?).
Now you struggle to recruit enough people to keep our armed forces up to strength, why? Because people don't wish to be regarded as little more than the next rack of expendable bombs in this endless war that is only making rich fraudsters richer and causing so much hatred in the world.
Restore the trust of the ordinary people in our legal system and in our magnificent armed forces, ordinary peoples sons laying down their lives for, well, to put it in the best light, inachievable aims.
Of course you will always get a minority that commit atrocities, but to get back at this infinitesimal few by destroying vast populations of civilians who had no part in it is plain wicked. The trillions spent on turning other peoples countries into radio-active wastelands should have been used to build bridges.
Lead by example you win more hearts and minds that way and in the end the fanatics, on both sides, will go out of style.
No doubt you will rubbish this comment with your usual derogatory invective, but your method of bomb, bomb, bomb hasn't exactly been a glowing success has it?
Do you ever wonder why the likes of "Taliban and Al Qaeda" (and many other 'groups' do such stuff Operator?
Or does history only go back as far as your date of birth for you?
Presumably, if you believe that the Taliban et al should be left alone because there only getting back at us for past aggression then you would have reached an accomodation with Nazi Germany on the grounds that they were only trying to reclaim their social and cultural identity after the humiliation of the first world war and the crippling financial reparations that followed. The second world war was wholly avoidable and largely the fault of Great Britain and America but it didn't alter the fact that they were the nations, along with Soviet Russia, who then had to deal with the consequences by using force to destroy the thing they created.
Surely, if you create a monster it's your responsibility to deal with it, by force if necessary. I would be interested to know exactly how anyone could seriously negotiate with a belief system that does not recognise anyone elses right to exist. The Pakistani government has just tried it in Swat, only to find that the Taliban's reaction was to ignore the agreement reached, institute a medieval reign of terror in which anyone who opposed them was killed and then simply took over as an occupying force.
Incidentaly, I don't accept that the West is responsible for the creation of the Taliban, the blame if anything lies with Russia, but since some people here do i'm just following the logic of your own argument to it's conclusion.
You also might like to consider the fact that if the very powerful and influential forces of radical Islam active in that region were to succeed in toppling the Pakistani government, which is their aim, they would be in possesion of a nuclear armed military in a state of constant tension with their nuclear armed neighbour India. The command and control in Pakistans military is so poor that their have been ocassions when they have deployed nuclear weapons in what they saw as a reaction to Indian deployments without any political authority to do so, ie they simply got ready to fire them because they felt like it. With the Taliban and their friends in control surrounded by a Nation of unbelievers what do you think the chances of a nuclear exchange would be. I think it would be close to 100%. That is of course before you get into questions like who they might give that technology to or who else besides India they might fire a weapon at. Were they to be implicated in any way in an atack on say America or another Western state it would probably trigger a nuclear armaggedon of cold war proportions. If they are able to fly hijacked aeroplanes into buildings or bomb tube trains to cause maximum casualties what moral limit prevents the firing of a nuclear weapon. When you embrace death and believe acheiving it is the ultimate triumph you simply cannot be reasoned with.
Are you seriously suggesting that we should simply leave them all to it.
Well, I guess the evil of USUK and Spain as tools of teh evil US Imperialism knows no bounds, enough to justify the random slaughter of American office workers and British and Spanish commuters on their way to work in your eyes, Question Time. So I guess as far as your concenred aggressive war is justified, as long as it's Al Q and the Taliban doing it - right?
So let me guess - all those Africans, Pakistanis and Indians that they also killed were part of BUSH BLIAR, US IMPERIALISM and teh Zionard conspiracy to abolish old fashioned light bulbs too.
What did all those Africans and Indians and Pakistanis that the Taliban / Al quaeda killed do to the Taliban? As that little Indian boy says in that Dispaches doc: What did we ever do to them?
I'm all ears...
Evidently you have not done your research into causes Operator. you need to go back quite a few centuries before the USA was 'born' even - to fully understand whats happening now. But I'm sure you will not let a minor detail like historical facts get in the way of your presumptions, opinions and assumptions.
So your saying that we might all die because it's all our fault that centuries ago Jeebus was rude to Muhammed, or something?
That's just pathetic.
...
Go on then. Enlighten us all with your wisdom. Tell us how events centuries ago led directly and inevitably to the Taliban indiscriminately murdering people all around the world, and how they had it coming really because of whatever it was that happened, but it's still wrong for anyone else to fight the Taliban and if they do they're tools of US Imperialuism (TM).
What questions?
Or do you mean these (your) STATEMENTS?
#1 - "So you DO condone acts of agression and the killing of civilians"'
#2 - "So your saying that we might all die because it's all our fault that centuries ago Jeebus was rude to Muhammed".
#3 - "So I guess as far as your concerned aggressive war is justified".
None of your above sentences are questions, they are your opinions only.
IF you are serious about debating important issues then perhaps you should consider NOT putting words into another persons mouth.
Not sure why this argument is still going on.
Just agree to disagree, as no-one is going to change their mind.
End of..?
a picture paints a thousand words
Fraid not. How about Iran (currently suffering from western imposed sanctions so the public suffer) and Pakistan to name but two...
Everyone nicely forgets that the war at home is Imperialism pretending to be home sweet home. The oxygen is being burned out of the air supply rapidly and is approaching none sufficient oxygen to live on. Thats what happens with burning fossil fuels. What could be worse than an air supply that sufficates its population, while pretending to be necessary for your good and well being. Sounds Germanic almost.