Demonstration Against the EDL

by Darkside321 Tue Jul 03, 2012 00:10

To paraphrase Voltaire: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

Anarchists and anti-fascists believe they have a right to put forward their views without fear of oppression or violent disagreement. If it is good for one group then it must be good for another. Sadly, although I disagree with the EDL, I must accept that they have a right to put their opinions forward without fear of attack.

As an aside, it seems that some EDL members have a (in their minds) genuine grievance against perceived islamification and there are others that are just in it for a fight backed up by their own motives. One might draw parallels here with the riots in SC where some people had a genuine (in their minds) grievance against Tesco and/or the eviction of a squat but many were there just for a fight and to have a ruck with "the man".

by CHump Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:24

Really good to see this level of activism against the EDL...... NO COMPROMISE WITH RACIST TOOLS!

by Boyd Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:38

Anarchists don't believe they have a right to put their views forward without opposition or violence used against them. In fact they expect it.

It usually comes in the form of aggression from the police, rather than the Right, but that's because the Right were beaten from the streets in the 1930's and then again in the 1970's, when they tried to bring their hatred into our communities.

The "40 Year Cycle" has worked its way around, the Right has once again reached a level, like Mosley in the 1930's and the NF in the 1970's, where they feel strong enough to take to the streets. So, its time for ALL aspects of the Left to take to the streets and beat them again.

No one's talking about violence - all it will take is everyone to turn up, at the Fountains at 11am, and take non-violent direct action protest. To block streets, push through police lines, and make sure the BNP/EDL march does not happen.

There is no threat to Bristol, or Britain, from Islamification. The threat to Britain comes from abandoning the progress the "99%" have made towards greater equality in the 20th Century, and going back to the Victorian-style politics we see from ALL political parties today.

If history (or Greece) teaches us anything, it is that this will lead to a collapse of the centre, and the rebirth of mass political movements. Left wing politics are the natural politics of the working class and so these movements will get bigger (look at Syrzia in Greece) and become a threat to Corporate and State interests.

In panic, these interests will look to the fascist Right as the 'lesser of two evils', and start to back them in their activities (look at the police backing Golden Dawn on the streets of Greece).

If we're playing the quotation game, Hitler famously said that the only way the Nazi's could have been stopped is if they were beaten off the streets before 1932. Then they would never have been seen as a potential ally for the merchant class and state, and never come to power.

Britain beat Oswald Moseley and his Blackshirts off the streets in the 1930's, and then went to war to beat the Fascists powers on the continent. It cost us our Empire, put us in debt to the US for 50 years, but it was worth it.

Thousands got wounded or went to prison opposing the Blackshirts in the 1930's. Hundreds of thousands gave their lives to defeat Fascism in the 1940's. A new generation paid their dues smashing the National Front in the 1970's.

Now its time for us in Bristol, to fight, and win, the battle for Our Generation.

EVERYONE TO THE STREETS ON THE 14TH JULY!

by anon Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:25

People aren't just upset about what they say. What worries us is the fact that every time they, er "demonstrate" minorities end up getting beaten up. Families with children have been attacked by these thugs.

But do continue whining about the human rights of fascist thugs, I'm sure they won't give you a kicking if you turn up to observe how lovely and fluffy they are.

You liberals are always defending the rights of terrorists, thugs, and crooks, aren't you? Is there any evil you won't defend?

by Darkside321 Tue Jul 03, 2012 19:14

I'm afraid that I have to disagree with you. Activists on these pages are forever complaining if the police or whoever block their actions/protests. The hypocrisy is astounding.

by CHimp Tue Jul 03, 2012 20:51

This from the Evening Pestilence...

POLICING the far right English Defence League's upcoming march through Bristol will cost tax payers £500,000 and involve 1,000 police officers coming from as far away as Yorkshire.

by Sero Wed Jul 04, 2012 08:10

To paraphrase Voltaire: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

Except Voltaire never said that, it was Evelyn Beatrice Hall, and she was wrong too. Its liberalism in its purist form. And its dumb. I hope the EDL get the reception from the people of Bristol that they deserve. They aren't wanted or needed here.

by Mr JJJ Wed Jul 04, 2012 08:43

@Darkside321
The question of the limits of legitimate free speech is one that has been extensively explored. The general consensus is that everyone's right to free speech should be protected, except in two specific circumstances:

1. When free speech creates danger for bystanders. The famous quote here is that "the right to free speech does not extend to shouting 'fire' in a crowded theatre'. In the case of the EDL, their clear history of street violence means that although we might respect their right to voice their views in other ways, they should not be allowed to march through a city.
2. When free speech is used by political groups who would remove that freedom from others if they achieved power. This is the Nazi comparison: the Nazi Party, once they came to power, systematically silenced their political opponents. Full freedom of speech can only really be given to those who accept the principle of freedom of speech for others. If you don't accept the rules, you're not allowed to play the game. You could argue that the EDL fall into this category too.

The second principle there is more problematic and is open to abuse; the EDL would no doubt argue that Islamic fundamentalists should also be denied freedom of speech because they would deny it to others. So I wouldn't personally argue too hard on those grounds. But the first principle has been around in liberal discourse for a few hundred years and has stood the test of time.

Of course, there's another approach, which is to meet your political opponents on the terms that they choose. If the EDL only ever marched peacefully, we could have a separate and peaceful march to oppose them. But they don't: their protests have been marked by street violence and disorder. So it's appropriate to meet them on those terms. Again, I wouldn't argue too hard on that point myself, but there is a logic to it.

As for the charge of hypocrisy, that's only a crime for people who don't know right from wrong. If a politician introduces laws banning homosexuality then turns out to be gay themselves, it's not their hypocrisy that's a problem, it's the laws they introduced. Actions and words can be right or wrong and that's what matters, not hypocrisy.
"Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, petty statesmen and divines." - Ralph Waldo Emerson.

by Darkside321 Wed Jul 04, 2012 17:19

@Sero

Which is why I wrote "To paraphrase Voltaire...". The sentiment is what is important.

@Mr JJJ

I appreciate what you are saying regarding public safety but on balance I am happy to let the police decide whether they think the march is a threat in this respect since, after all, they will be the ones who have to sort it out and will be on the sharp end. I find it hard to justify banning a march on the basis that if people opposing that group turn up and block the march it could erupt in disorder. It doesn't take much time to find plenty of situations where eg UAF have turned up to protest and been generally cited as the instigators of the trouble, in the saem way as is takes little time to find situations where the EDL must take the blame.

As for the comment about meeting on equal terms (which I appreciate you don't necessarily believe) it is this attitude that has created some of the longest and bloodiest disputes in history and will never work. I am sure that you know (as do I) whole families that would happily beat crap out of anyone in another family, not because of any particular grudge, but because of something someone did their grandad or whatever. The reason is lost - it just becomes good enough that side A has always hated side B. Feel free to replace "family" with gang/religion/political party/whatever

Let it be clear that I am no fan of the EDL but my personal opinion is that it would be far better to ignore them than raising their profile by attempting to blockade their march with the potential for disorder this would have.

by anon Wed Jul 04, 2012 19:07

Just on the off chance that you're not winding us up, and are sincere about what you say:

Why not go along and simply watch. Just see how wonderful and democratic the EDL are for yourself. Make your own mind up.

by darkside321 Thu Jul 05, 2012 07:32

Trust me, I genuinely believe in what I'm saying and will be practicing what I preach by studiously ignoring the EDL's march.

Anyone who has ever dealt with a bunch of petulant kids will know that this strategy is generally successful...

by anon Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:22

Kind of hard to ignore it when a load of meatheads descend on your town with mayhem in mind, determined to smash the place up and hurl abuse at minorities.

You remind me of a teacher I had when I was bullied at school. Five years of hell and all they could say "Just ignore the constant harrassment, violence and abuse." Just ignore being beaten up. Just ignore having your property destroyed.

I suppose you think the Bosnians should have just "ignored" Milosevic when he bombed and shot them into oblivion. The Tutsis should have just ignore the Hutus when they got massacred by them. The Poles, Russians and Jews should have just ignored Hitler. Of course. Silly me.

If you're not even willing to witness what your precious fascists get up to when they are let loose on a city, your opinion does not matter a damn. Go away.

by No gods Thu Jul 05, 2012 14:44

"Trust me, I genuinely believe in what I'm saying and will be practicing what I preach by studiously ignoring the EDL's march."
Have you any idea how pompous that sounds?
Nice for people who can sit back and ignore all these problems.
Enjoy it while you can, you wont be able to turn your nose away for ever.

by anon Thu Jul 05, 2012 16:17

According to people like that ignorance is always the best way to deal with hatred, bigotry and injustice. Hey, it works for ostriches!

Just walk on by, innit? Just walk on by and ignore it. After all, I'm Alright Jack - I don't live in the area that's being targeted. I'm not Asian, Muslim, or whatever. I don't have to worry about my family being attacked or my business destroyed by rioting thugs.

"I'm white, so screw you" - isn't that what darkside is saying?

by darkside321 Thu Jul 05, 2012 17:18

A correction - these are not my precious fascists, indeed nothing could be further from the truth.

And really, you want to compare the effects of a march through our city with the plights of the victims of genocide. How very thoughtful and intelligent of you. Ooops another correction - it is neither of those things, rather it is a reactionary and deliberately inflammatory statement. Here is a fact for you - it is not illegal to hold a particular belief or to verbalise that belief. It is illegal to incite violence or to discriminate against people because of a number of protected characteristics - and this applies to all sides in any argument.

Anyone suggesting that the EDL march should be met with violence is acting against not only the letter of the law but also the spirit of freedom that this country should strive toward. You have already made your mind up that the EDL march will end up in violence - you may indeed be right, however I'll tell you that that is much more likely to happen if a bunch of people attack them. Personally I will blame anyone involved for any violence that happens and that applies to both sides.

Groups that feel oppressed and unable to put their views forward turn to violence, a fact backed up by history at all levels. Meet fire with fire and the fire gets bigger. Meet fire with indifference and starve it of oxygen and it will die.

Finally, because I don't agree with you my opinion does not matter and I should go away? Really? Do you realise which part of the political spectrum that viewpoint puts you on? You might be more at home with the EDL than you think.

by anon Thu Jul 05, 2012 18:34

I'm sure all the people they've hospitalised will agree with you. The peace-loving EDL are the victims in all this and evil immigrants and lefties who dare speak up against them are the violent ones!

I challenge you go walk around Bristol on the 14th - not to participate, but just walk past the EDL as they smash up someone's business that they've put their lives into, or beat up an already traumatised refugee, or throw fireworks at a left-wing protestor.

But I guess you're too much of a coward even to sit back and watch, right?

by Boyd Thu Jul 05, 2012 21:16

Very well said Anon.

EVERYONE TO THE STREETS ON THE 14TH!

by Darkside321 Thu Jul 05, 2012 22:24

I'm pretty sure I didn't call the EDL victims. What is clear is that you are spoiling for a fight with them in the same way as your comments to me are just attacking vitriol. You want a reaction, you want a scrap. Then you'll be able to hold your head up high and so "I told you so".

I'll say again that I'll hold the same opinion of anyone involved in violence on the 14th whatever side they fall on. To clarify, that opinion is that those involved are a waste of oxygen.

by anon Fri Jul 06, 2012 01:01

I'm not up for a fight. In fact I'm terrified of what the fascists will do if the police decide to run them through my ethnically diverse neighbourhood, and I'm also afraid of the general breakdown in law and order that may follow as minorities realize that far from protecting them, the police are out to help fascists beat them up.

But however afraid I am of violence, at least I'm not a coward like you who preaches indifference towards religious persecution, yet doesn't even have the bottle to simply bear witness to the thing they want to allow.

You believe that bullies have the right to intimidate and harrass minorities. But you won't even look at it? What kind of coward are you? Again, I'm NOT talking about violence or fighting - I'm talking about the courage to simply look at the ugly scenes you wish to enable in the name of "freedom".

What are you afraid of? That the fascists will turn on you? Or do you fear your own conscience?

It must be awful to be a coward.

by Sero Fri Jul 06, 2012 07:53

Couldn't be said any better,

by CHump Fri Jul 06, 2012 09:22

Cheers anon, your last has got to be just about the best comment ever on this topic, I'm with you mate :)

by x Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:08

'Meet fire with indifference and starve it of oxygen and it will die.'

I sincerely hope no-one ever asks you to fight fires, because simply ignoring them doesn't tend to solve the problem. Indifference is very different to preventing oxygen from reaching a fire, which requires active intervention on the part of the firefighter.

You may choose to fight fire with water, foam, dry powder or co2 depending on the type of fire, but simply burying your head in the sand and pretending it isn't a problem isn't going to make it go away - unless of course you're expecting others to fix the problem for you.

by Tory-watch Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:18

That's just what that insane woman Margaret Thatcher used to say!

by Fireman Sam - FBU Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:21

Sticking with the fire fighting analogy here's how to fight the EDL fire.

1) Starve them of oxygen. If literally is not youer style then blocking thier message by getting in thier way is a good option.
2) Stop them from spreading. Prevent the EDL from organising and prevent them from moving anywhere on thier march.
3) Spray them with foam and water.

That should do the trick

by Darkside321 Fri Jul 06, 2012 13:31

@Tory Watch

You are right that was what Thatcher has said, as have many others.

However if one looks not at what Thatcher did in itself (ie a lot of pretty atrocious stuff) but instead look at what her objectives were and how she set about achieving them, and hence the efficacy of her strategy we would have to say that she did what she set out to do and achieved what she wanted.

As the longest serving Prime Minister she got people to share her viewpoint (ignore what that viewpoint was) and that is testament to how well her strategies worked.

I can envisage a number of scenarios
1) EDL turn up, very few Bristolians turn up, the march is a damp squib passes off peacefully and is quickly forgotten about.
2) EDL turn up, very few Bristolians turn up in support, the EDL kicks off and is quickly hammered down by the huge numbers of police in attendance, preferably with a bit of excessive force. This gets a brief mention on the news but memory of it is short lived. The EDL fuck off and we carry on as we were.
3) The EDL turn up, as do 1000s of protesters, they are kept apart and both groups remain peaceful. This gets a significantly bigger mention on the news, esp as there are loads more people on the anti-march who are happy to get publicity and make their comment to the press.
4) EDL turn up, as do the antis. It kicks off big time and the police are trying to deal with 2 seperate groups. As such their manpower is stretched and the situation gets nasty. This hits the National press, and the EDL get significant publicity. The EDL recruits more members as do the UAf or whoever. Everything gets bigger, nastier, and more public.

I know which one I prefer.

@X and Fireman Sam: Water deprives a fire of oxygen since the O2 in the water is bound so cannot react with the materials burning. putting water on a fire deprives it of oxygen. Ensuring that there is very little for the press to talk about wrt to the march is essentially depriving the EDL of the oxygen of publicity. Ensuring that it all kicks off is akin to chucking a bucket of petrol over a barbeque. It is stupid and short termism. If I chuck petrol on my BBQ then yes, I will get the desired effect for a bit - it will get hotter. Shortly afterward the whole thing will explode.

But then again, yes, go along to the march, make sure it all kicks off, maybe chuck a few rocks at the fuckers - they deserve it after all. Then afterward brag to your mates about how you brought the EDL down. Don't worry yourselves whentheir membership goes sky high and they are given valuable airtime to put forward their crap on prime time tv. After all, you made a stand, well done, you can hold your head up high and blame all the others that didn't help you. Except that the elevated position and increased publicity of the EDL will be down to you.

The difference between men and boys is that men understand how people and groups interact and understand the long term consequences of their actions. Boys just think that hitting something repeatedly will make it go away. It doesn't work at any level, whether that be international, national, down your street, or in the playground.

by x Fri Jul 06, 2012 14:32

'I can envisage a number of scenarios
1) EDL turn up, very few Bristolians turn up, the march is a damp squib passes off peacefully and is quickly forgotten about.
2) EDL turn up, very few Bristolians turn up in support, the EDL kicks off and is quickly hammered down by the huge numbers of police in attendance, preferably with a bit of excessive force. This gets a brief mention on the news but memory of it is short lived. The EDL fuck off and we carry on as we were.
3) The EDL turn up, as do 1000s of protesters, they are kept apart and both groups remain peaceful. This gets a significantly bigger mention on the news, esp as there are loads more people on the anti-march who are happy to get publicity and make their comment to the press.
4) EDL turn up, as do the antis. It kicks off big time and the police are trying to deal with 2 seperate groups. As such their manpower is stretched and the situation gets nasty. This hits the National press, and the EDL get significant publicity. The EDL recruits more members as do the UAf or whoever. Everything gets bigger, nastier, and more public.'

What about 5) EDL turn up, very few Bristolians turn up. Whilst the police try to contain the EDL some escape the kettle, and go on to smash some local businesses run by ethnic minorities and put a few people in hospital. Local community takes a big hit as those attacked feel that the liberals really couldn't care less about them.

This seems far more likely than your screnario 1) because I can't think of an occasion where edl marches have passed peacefully.

and 6) EDL turn up as do the antis. The antis take non-viloent direct action and block the EDL march. The EDL don't really get anywhere and end up going home having been denied the opportunity to spread their hatred and attack minorities. Local community is not fragmented, minorities feel welcome. EDL decide that maybe Bristol isn't the place for them

'@X and Fireman Sam: Water deprives a fire of oxygen since the O2 in the water is bound so cannot react with the materials burning. putting water on a fire deprives it of oxygen. Ensuring that there is very little for the press to talk about wrt to the march is essentially depriving the EDL of the oxygen of publicity. Ensuring that it all kicks off is akin to chucking a bucket of petrol over a barbeque. It is stupid and short termism. If I chuck petrol on my BBQ then yes, I will get the desired effect for a bit - it will get hotter. Shortly afterward the whole thing will explode.

But then again, yes, go along to the march, make sure it all kicks off, maybe chuck a few rocks at the fuckers - they deserve it after all. Then afterward brag to your mates about how you brought the EDL down. Don't worry yourselves whentheir membership goes sky high and they are given valuable airtime to put forward their crap on prime time tv. After all, you made a stand, well done, you can hold your head up high and blame all the others that didn't help you. Except that the elevated position and increased publicity of the EDL will be down to you.

The difference between men and boys is that men understand how people and groups interact and understand the long term consequences of their actions. Boys just think that hitting something repeatedly will make it go away. It doesn't work at any level, whether that be international, national, down your street, or in the playground.'

First we seem to have different priorities here. I personally am more concerned about racists attacking members of my community than what the Daily Mail has to say about it the next day. You may think that having a few of my community hospitalised would be great - think of the headlines decrying the fascists - I'm concerned about what this would do to the individuals on the end of the beating, their families, friends, and what that does to our community's sense of cohesion and mutual respect.

Secondly I can only presume that you've taken to talking such complete rubbish because you're losing the argument. No one other than you is suggesting that the EDL are stoned or attacked with weapons. Trying to beat people to death with an assortment of weaponry is somewhat different to trying to block a march in most people's eyes and I feel as though you are probably aware of the difference, but have chosen to start throwing unfounded accusations about to try and muddy the water because actually discussing the issues at hand has been going rather badly. You have repeatedly said that your strategy to threats to your community - be it the EDL or a fire - is indifference. You think that by ignoring problems they go away. I'm sorry but I don't agree.

Given that everywhere the EDL go they are opposed - like Moseley's fascists in the 30's and the NF in the 70's - and that like their historical predecessors their popularity has not skyrocketed as a result, it would appear to be a case of your opinion on the one hand, and current and past experiences on the other.

by bob Fri Jul 06, 2012 14:38

"Trust me, I genuinely believe in what I'm saying and will be practicing what I preach by studiously ignoring the EDL's march."

have you started yet? :)

by Jerry Fri Jul 06, 2012 15:22

When somebody bigs up and spins Thatcherism clearly they have nothing to contribute to a thread on the EDL or fascism period, the EDL goon-squad will not be tolerated in multi-ethnic Bristol ever!